Turkey Continues Reaching Out to Armenia
The secular Moslem country Turkey continues to reach out to Armenia, its Christian neighbor. Both countries had little to no contact in the last 15 years, because Armenia tried to convince foreign governments to recognize the Armenian Genocide - a term both Turkey and many historians dispute - and because it invaded another neighbor, Azerbaijan.
When Armenia invaded Azerbaijan and took the region of Ngoro-Karabagh from its Turkic neighbor, Turkey closed the border, thereby causing tremendous problems for Armenia’s economy.
This year, however, the two sides seemed to be willing to reach out to each other. Armenia’s President invited his Turkish counterpart to visit Yerevan, Armenia’s capital, to watch the football match Armenia-Turkey together; Abdullah Gul accepted.
And so Turkey’s President went to Armenia on Saturday. Watching the match was a pleasure for him, not only because his Armenian colleague proved to be hospitable, but also - perhaps mainly - because Turkey won quite easily; 0-2.
However, there are no direct signs that Turkey is prepared to reopen the border. After all, Armenia has not done anything to indicate it might be willing to strike a deal with the Azerbaijanis, who continue to grief the loss of their beloved province; a region where many beautiful mosques could be visited once, which have been all destroyed, however, in recent years.
There are encouraging signs, however, of the two sides changing their relationship significantly. Turkish Radio Television (TRT) announced Tuesday for instance that it is ‘moving towards cooperation with Armenia’s public television station to promote dialogue between two neighbors.’
TRT’s General Manager, İbrahim Şahin, ‘announced TRT might start broadcasting in Armenian.’
‘Cooperation will be made in formats that improve dialogue, programs that focus on Armenia and Turkey, exchange of information and experience, and other issues,’ a TRT document released recently said.
‘The memorandum of understanding between the two state television stations will be transformed into a business agreement in the near future to enable joint production of programs and documentaries.’
It is yet another sign of Turkey’s increasingly important role in the region. For decades, Turks have locked themselves up between their own borders, refusing to deal with the world outside it. That has changed significantly in the last year, however. It has led negotiations between Syria and Israel, for instance, it has talked to Iran - playing a mediating role in the debate between the West and the Persian country - and it is now reaching out to the country which considers Turkey its ‘mortal enemy.’
To a degree, however, one could also say that one can see Europe’s influence; it could very well be that the Turkish government reaches out to Armenia due to European pressure. One wonders when Europe will put pressure on Armenia, in its turn, to do something about the situation in Ngoro-Karabagh.
The decision to reach out to Armenia does not go undisputed in Turkey itself, however. The two main opposition parties, the somewhat socialist CHP and the nationalist MHP, are both angry with Gul and Erdogan. They refused to read the National Program the country’s foreign minister, Ali Babacan, wants to present to the European Union, for instance.
Many Turks feel unfairly treated by Armenia, believing it to distort history. Additionally, many Turks argue, it does not make sense to hold friendly conversations with a country that says in its constitution that part of its neighbor’s territory should be its. Armenians refer to Eastern Anatolia as ‘Western Armenia’; a highly insulting term to many Turks, especially because their ancestors had to fight and die so their children and grandchildren could live on the lands historically inhabitated by Turks.
Not only will TRT broadcast in Armenian, it is considering doing the same in Georgian and Russian. Its website, it was announced, will be altered drastically; it is currently only available in Turkish, but one will be able to read it in 12 languages soon.
Armenia invaded Azerbaijan and took the region of Ngoro-Karabagh from its Turkic neighbor
Not only the Nagorno-Karabakh, but also seven other districts. In these districts only, Armenian soldiers butchered more than 2,000 unarmed Azeri civilans, destroye hundred of villages, hundred of religious and cultural buildings, many schools:
http://www.ataa.org/reference/devastation_az.html
The corpse of Monte Melkonian, former terrorist of the infamous ASALA, next of the dissident group ASALA-RM, finally volounteer for the invasion of West-Azerbaijan, is in a mausoleum in Armenia.
However, a reconciliation, it is with an ennemy, not with a friend. The Turkish-Armenian reconciliation is a good project. Mr. Sarkissian is the first Armenian president who want this reconciliation, and can do it. The problem is, for Turkey, to obtain decent conditions.
As long as Turkey does not acknowledge the importance of so called genocide accusations and form an institutional move as we discussed with Selin in another article, it does not matter whether it reaches out its hand to Armenia or not.
Even if Turkey forms an official move that is half as active as Armenian Diaspora, maybe there will be a chance of improvement in the debate.
There should be a firm stand from Turkey side, alongside with attempts of warming up the relations. We are trying to improve relations with a country that is just after land from Turkey and I have not seen anyone appreciating us for that so far. So what is all this for? Where will it take us to? To me, nowhere.
Anything Turkey does is always being used and will always be used against it by the Diaspora. I read in a discussion forum that Gül’s visit to Armenia was considered by some as our nation’s guilty conscience showing. How ridiculous is that!
So it is more of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t type of thing for Turkey cos whatever Turkey does or whichever way it goes to, they will always find excuses to attack Turkey.
So according to me the firm stand supported by an institutional move is the answer. Until then the truth won’t be able to speak for itself unfortunately and people from around the world will just be exposed to distorted and biased historical information.
"a highly insulting term to many Turks, especially because their ancestors had to fight and die so their children and grandchildren could live on the lands historically inhabitated by Turks."
——
Historically inhabited by Turks? Uh…. last I checked the Armenians weren’t trying to claim Mongolia.
Check the maps of antiquity. It’s ancient Greece and Armenia that inhabit those lands you call "historically Turkish".
I guess that makes Agia Sophia and Ephesus "historically Turkish" too.
Check the maps of antiquity. It’s ancient Greece and Armenia that inhabit those lands you call "historically Turkish".
The "Armenia" of the Antiquity has no ties with the Armenians of 2008; not more than the "Macedonia" of Alexander the Great has ties with the Republic of Macedonia.
The Easter Anatolia is peopled by a Turkish majority since the end of the Middle Age.
The Armenians and the Turks, especially the Turks of Eastern Anatolia, are completely mixed. Search who was the first in this region has simply no sense.
Lucrece, I agree with you.
See, didn’t I tell you, there will always be a way to attack Turkey.
I may have used these lines before but it seems as though I will need to use them many more times in the future. How many ab-originals are living in Australia now? How many Indians are living in America? By whom are these lands being ruled now? Should we announce British and Americans as committers of genocides as well?
Land wars have nothing to do with the so called genocide issue and land claims of Armenia from Turkey. How many times should we tell you this?
I would like to ask my turkish frinds why they dont speak about 40 years of occupation of Cypruse and colonizing of the occupacion of Cyprus.
And about those who were killed by armenians in Sumgayit, Baku and other big towns in Azerbaijan is no one in Tukey speaking about.
Think a litle bit clear and not so hypocrit.
Lucrece’s factless propaganda that everyone is mixed so forget identity is another way that mixed races (Americans, jews, turks etc) with oil ambitions for wars to obtain other resources come up with to weaken those standing in their way and those demanding justice. It was sad to see innocent peole die in S. Ossetia and Georgia but the turks and turkophiles got what they deserved. Now turks must accept the Genocide and give up their ambitions of reoccupying Artsakh if they want to take oil and gas to their zionist friends. No Armenian president or Russian force can change the fact that Armenians demand justice.
The Armenia of antiquity defines modern Armenia and Armenians, in cultural and religious terms. The Armenia of antiquity is not just a vague concept or something that belongs to the past (your example of Alexander the Great) but a civilization to which Armenians of today adhere in their veins.
You simply show how little you know about Armenians.
Michael, the beautiful province of Nagorno-Karabakh was not invaded by Armenia, but Azerbaijan wanted to ethnically cleans the historic homeland of the Armenians of population to which Karabakh Armenians, with the help of Armenia, put up a stop to it.
As for Turkey reaching out to Armenia, although a very good thing for Armenia, it is driven from a sense of urgency and self-interest by Turkey. It is not a hidden fact that Turkey is more concerned with repercussions of Genocide recognition by the US, which is considered inevitable if Barak Obama wins, at least that is the perseption based on well founded indications, and less and less concerned with Nagorno-Karabakh Turkey’s main interest.
There are no favours here, simply a deep understanding on both sides.
Following the logic of some of our Armenian readers it seems that we should start demanding Americans to ‘return’ to Europe and hand back America to its native inhabitants.
John when there are wars, one side wins and another loses. The winning side occupies the territory. Maybe the Armenians should have sided with the Ottomans when they offered them to form an independent state as opposed to being duped by Russians in the hopes for something much bigger.
There is no hypocrisy here, just the recognition that Armenian Revolutionary Federation wanted the Eastern Turkey as part of their territory during the First World War and failed. There is not a possibility for Armenians to get back "Western Armenia" after pushing genocide recognitions in many parliaments around the world, just a heads-up for you on that one. The only way to get the land back would be when Armenians are prepared to fight Turks in a real war.
The Armenian logic, in Diaspora and Armenia simply is: Turks tried to wipe out the Armenian nation, but the Armenian nation firmly tells the Turks we are here to stay and reclaim out heritage and dignity. Looking towards the future at the expense of forgetting the past is only a Turkish wishful thinking. Selin, what seems to be a recurring theme on the part of Turks who do not wish to come to terms with reality of history they talk often about war instead of reconcilliation. With all the nationalistic noises in your heads you do not see that there is a genuine willingness of reconciliation on the Armenian side if only Turks stop insulting Armenians (and themselves) by saying genocide did not occur. Armenians regard the official denial of Turkey and the langauge that follows such denial, such as "lies", "fabrications", "conspiracy against Turkey" etc… as a continuation of that same threat of the Ittihadists, this time with a language using Latin letters instead of Arabic. In my opinion, you would be more than surprised to see how the land issue will disapear after an honest assessment of history is done by Turkey. For as long as Turks deny the mortal assult on the Armenian nation of the Ottoman Empire, Armenians will demand Western Armenia as their own, just to remind Turks that the murderous actions of the Ottoman regime cannot be allowed to get away scot-free, if any meaningful relations want to be established.
"The "Armenia" of the Antiquity has no ties with the Armenians of 2008; not more than the "Macedonia" of Alexander the Great has ties with the Republic of Macedonia."—————————
Lucrèce,
Haha, that’s a good one. So I guess ancient Rome has nothing to do with Rome, ancient Greece has nothing to do with Greece, ancient China has nothing to do with China. Great logic. Whatever suits your nationalistic agenda to justify your occupation.
Once you accept that in your mind, I guess as a Turk it can justify the fact that your nation came into Europe unwanted by the Europeans and caused violence, attacking the peoples that were already there and had staked their claim from antiquity.
Michael van der Galien mentioned that perhaps by my logic, the Americans should go back to Europe and give the land back to the natives.
Well Michael, the fundamental difference is that here in Canada, the Canadian government actually recognizes its genocide, and not only that, gives the natives special priviledges as an ethnic group, acknowledging that they were indeed here first.
Fat chance the Turkish government would do that in Kars or Van. For one thing there are no Armenians left there.
But the point is that the Canadian government is understanding and apologetic of it’s past attrocities. Turkey ought to take its example, at the very least starting with the Kurds.
How would you feel if I busted into your house one day, took it over by force, locked you out, and then denied I ever did it? Is there human dignity and decency in your actions there?
On a national level, this is what has happened with Turkey and not only the Armenians, but many European nations.
I think that if the Turks had stayed in Mongolia and built a decent civilization there complete with cultural achievements like the Chinese (as opposed to invading on horseback) Europeans would have far more respect for them today in 2008.
I hate to tell you all this but real wars are coming and turkey has many enemies with only two declining powers as friends. By the way Misha those currently living in our central and western lands are Kurds and a negligable amount of turks. They do not have to leave as long as they live peacefully in a united and free proper Armenia with returning Armenians. Misha von gul your articles always make me laugh, keep it up it’s very amusing.
I would say that acording to Turk logic we lost and we should get over it, but i guess they dont know Armenians,
Have any of you (Turks) ever heard "Those who dont know the history are bound to repeat it, Those who have no history are bound to releave it"?
Assyrians, Egyptians, Parthians, Persians, Romans, Arabs, Mongols, Turks, and then some. They all wanted Armenia, our colture, our people, our land, they all failed. What makes anyone think that now after all this time Armenians are just gona geaveup. In war one side wins the other regroups (Selin), wars take years, sometimes houndreads and its not over until one side geaves up or is wiped out. And Michael van der Galien they are called Indian reservation lands, all over USA lands that were given to native Americans, lands that have their own laws and regulations.
or have no understenig of logic
I am amazed at the dreams and imaginzation of Armenian fascists the fundamentalists in general and on this page especially.
There has never been a Great Armenia in this region ever. The only armenian state built (with the armenian king TIgran) with the help of Turkic warriors after BC existed for only sheer 30 years versus Turkic states existing for hundreds of years stretching back to 1 BC. The Tigran that armenians call great, which indeed was nothing but small, created this state with the help of Turkic warriors. With dismal number of armenians, who have never been good warriors, he couldn’t do anything. And indeed when Turkic warriors left him, he just evaporated as it shall be.
Armenians came to this region from India. They are not indigenous population as they claim to be. The indigenous population of the region were ALbanians, Georgirans, Lezgings, Chehens and other TUrkic tribes. Just remember the Khazars around Volga and in Caucasus.
The armenian dream creted and nurtured by the fundamentalist armenian church. Armenian stuck in the past and that past will bury them fully. Builders of the past, can’t be builders of the future.
Armenia is in trouble. Its all connections with Russia ceased to exist. The only way out is Iran. Just imagine what would happen if Azerbaijanis in get independence, which they will do sooner or later. Or even without independence with little support they can blow up the entire transportation going to and back to Armenian from Iran. Armenia is desperate in getting out of isolation. Therefore your fascist president didn’t mention the so-called big armenian lie - armenian genocide allegations in the meetings with the Turkish president. Armenia as a coutnre and economy doesn’t havey any importance neither for Azerbaiajn, nor for Turkey. It is the only goodwill gesture of the current (I stressing that current) Turksih government.
However, no borders and transportation to Armenia will be opened without armenian fascists leaving the Azerbaijani lands they could captue thanks to help of Russian and domestic civil war in Azerbaijan.
Just imagine what would and could happen to isolated and fundamentalist armenia if Iranian Azerbaiajnis cut all the roads to Armenia. Armenians, I have a clear message for you. You will vanish in this region, unless you are clever enough to get out of the Azerbaiajni lands and beg Turkey for opening its borders. Your end is close.
PS. There wasn’t a genocide. Genocide is a myth created and suported by the church to prevent assimilation of Armenian diaspora who left the rgeion for better opportunities. So Turks found to be the best scapegoats. Also if there were genocide, there wouldn’t be so many statues in Yerevan built to honor the Armenian heros. Who are these heroes. They were the Armenian milita commanders equipped and armed by Russsians and English to kill Turks and muslims. THey did it successfully masascarig half million Turks, Kurds and Azerbaijanis.
Here is the answer why there are so many armenians around the world as explained by an armenian in another blog on armenian racism.
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2006/08/09/armenia-mixed-marriages/#comment-1513075
"Lyudmyla;
Sorry you have no knowledge of history, politics, and how war plays a part in the economic and social hardships on people.
My answer to you -we flee our country for the same reasons Mexicans flee Mexico for opportunities, or the Armenians from Lebanon from civil war and Christians being pushed out of government in the middle east, or what about the Hmong that fled Laos because the new governments in SE Asia were hostile to them because of their friendship with the US Military? These stories go on and on why different groups flee their country.
None of us in America came from US soil, the only true people are the Native Americans.
So why did the Quakers flee the Church of England and come to America? "
First Canadians have not recognized any "genocide" that they have committed. All they’ve done is to apologize here and there. Please show me a link that officially shows Canadians recognizing their "genocides", by using that very G-word in a formal statement by a government official. That’s what recognition is about. Please provide us a link so that we can be cultured. I would appreciate it very much.
A more ironic irony is the lack of minorities in any important or significant positions in the so-called "multicultural" Canadian society. So please, before any Canadian comes to "lecture" Turks on that one, they should be cognizant of the fact that there are minorities that have reached fame and fortune in today’s Turkey, including top government positions. Yes, clearly Turks give many opportunities to their "oppressed" people whereas I don’t see a black or native Canadian in a half-ass important position. If there is one or two, just give us examples. Show business or sports don’t count.
On a final note, I guess the two "Armenian youth" above are ready and dying to fight and die in their efforts of reclaiming the Western Armenian territory. I can respect that a little more than the ANCA dudes who just talk and spew hatred in hopes to get a little more cash or land from whomever they can, if not from Turkey then from the U.S. territory. But please no shouting of "genocide" this time when your a** gets handed back to you. Yet again.
Chris, that is the whole point, countries accepting there is a genocide, not historians.
On what grounds does Canada goverment or Argentina goverment or Venezuela goverment accept the so called genocide? Is there a historical fact that all historians agree on and we Turks are not aware of? Don’t you see how politicized this issue is? Don’t you see what Armenian Diaspora is trying to do? Don’t you see you are only exposed to information that they want you to get exposed to? How many books of historians have you read about the accusations? Do you know anything other than the propaganda on websites?
I won’t even go to land issues here, the truth is obvious and kept repeated to ones who wants to understand it and if Armenians want to claim land from Turkey cos they ruled here one thousand years ago for an unknown period of time, then they should come and get it.
Why is Armenia not seeking for its so called justice through international legal platforms rather than political battlefields as Turkey continously asks it to do? Why?
This is so a vicious cycle that we keep repeating ourselves and it is so tiring. There is a selffulfilling prophecy here and day by day the propaganda from Diaspora increases coming with additional false accusations and claims. History is rewritten all over, they can not even decide on the amount supposedly murdered by Ottoman Empire.
Turkey is not denying the tragedic results of Tehcir Law, what Turkey tries to tell the world in vain is that there is no INTENTION of mass murdering of Armenians. Have you heard anything about Armenian terrorism Chris? Do you know anything about Dashnaks or Hunchaks? Do you know anything about Armenian massacres of Muslims before WW1 that led to Tehcir Law? I highly doubt so.
It is so easy to blame a nation for a crime that is not committed by it in the first place but it is so hard to acknowledge by people like you that when someone is accused of a crime it did not commit in the first place, he / she tries to defend itself, not give in to accusations because of political torture. Turkey trying to defend itself against extensive torture and accusations from Diaspora side is not denial, Armenian side not even opening its own archives and refusing to discuss the events on an international historical platform is denial. Take us to court NOW, I am begging you, but I know you won’t. Why? Let me tell you why, it is not the time yet. Enough politicial influence has not been bought yet. As and when there will be sufficient political influence, then there will not be a need for historians to discuss the events on an international convention or there won’t be any need for Turkey to be taken to court since the court’s ruling will be obvious. It is not just the time. Let 100 countries accept the so called accusations first, let all objective historians be silenced first and then it will be the time.
And please do not come to me with this so called conflict claims that Turkey defends Ottoman Empire on one hand and then seperates itself as a country from Ottoman Empire by saying that the goverment back then was even different. If you want to discuss the events with me through professors and historians (not biased ones) I am here to debate, if you want to actually talk about truth and not propaganda I am here to talk and I can even recommend sources for reading but otherwise do not come to me with lame excuses to attack Turkey.
What a sorry state we are in.
Above some Armenians are threatening (or more correctly dreaming) war to regain Western Armenia, with what nobody knows, and Turks looking at this and perhaps without even realizing spewing their long-held hatred and threatening Armenians with a new genocide all the while claiming there was never a genocide in the past.
We are long way off from reconciliation
Sad indeed.
Haha, that’s a good one. So I guess ancient Rome has nothing to do with Rome, ancient Greece has nothing to do with Greece, ancient China has nothing to do with China. Great logic.
Rome, Greece, and China were at area of civilization, politically organized. The "Armenia" of the Antiquity was never a state, a area of civilization, but only a geographic expression, without precise content, without "Armenian" population. The was never an Armenian state before 1918, except the kingdom of Little Armenia, destroyed before the Turkish conquest.
Whatever suits your nationalistic agenda to justify your occupation.
I am not Turkish, or from Turkish origin, but thank you to confirm that for many Armenians, the real problem with Turkey is the crazy dreams of conquest of Eastern Anatolia.
Elif first off Armenia does not want land form turkey.
Armenian President Serzh Sarkisian has stated that no officials in
Yerevan have leveled territorial claims against Turkey.
"I don`t recall any Armenian official`s ever putting forward such
demands," he told Turkish Radical newspaper.
Sarkisian alleged that, on the contrary, numerous Turkish officials
have announced territorial claims against Armenia in the past.
"I consider it out of place to name any persons or political parties,
because I know for sure that there are citizens and individuals in
Turkey who do not even consider Armenia a state," he maintained.
Also, Sarkisian said he saw no need to cite any pre-conditions for
the normalization of relations between the two countries.
Vartan Oskanian also said: The Treaty of Kars is in force as far as I’m concerned. Because Armenia is a successor in recognizing the Soviet treaties. And as long as any treaty hasn’t been renounced officially or replaced by a new one, it has been in force. But the problem is that the agreement has been violated so much by the Turkish side. If a legal expert looks at this agreement and the
way it’s been implemented, I’m not sure if the legal experts would conclude that this is a valid treaty. The violation is from the Turkish side, (because of) having closed its borders with Armenia, and this is a violation of the Treaty of Kars.
Like Sarkisian and Oskanian said Armenia doesnt have territorial claim against Turkey.
The Turkish archives are open. Armenians refuse dialogueOne of the most disingenuous Turkish arguments is that Turkish archives are open and that Armenian archives are closed on the genocide issue. They use this argument to mislead and to divert attention from the real issue, the crime of Genocide. Furthermore, they try to imply that Armenians have something to hide and do not want to open their archives for inspection or to enter into a dialogue with Turks.What is the truth?In regard to the Armenian Genocide, there are four main Turkish sources of archives:
According to the Istanbul Military Tribunal (1919 - 1921), which was established to try Turkish Government leaders who had ordered the implementation of the Armenian Genocide, most of the documents related to the latter three organizations have been either “stolen or destroyed.” During the trial, the Turkish persecutor in his indictment, stated: “Investigation of what had occurred reveals that important documents pertaining to this office [Special Organizations] …have been purloined.”In the same indictment, he also stated that “all of the documents and ledgers of the Central Committee [CUP] have been purloined.” Furthermore, many witnesses during the trials testified that the documents of CUP had been removed by Central Committee member Dr. Nazim.In regard to the Interior Ministry Archives, Aziz Bey (former director of General Security), revealed that Talât Pasha, the interior minister, prior to fleeing the country, took suitcases of documents, information and reports, and burned them.The only archives which are open are the Prime Ministerial Archives. These archives are limited to a small group of selected historians who a priori have demonstrated their support of Turkish government’s genocide denialist narrative. Furthermore, researchers are allowed only 25 documents per day, which severely limits the ability to work there.Recently, Mehmet Sait Uluisik, a German citizen of Turkish origin, was banned from entering Turkey to carry research in the Prime Minister’s Ottoman archives on the role of Circassians in the Armenian Genocide. The Circassians were armed and funded by the government of Turkey.Thus to claim Turkish archives are open to scholars is inaccurate. The critical archives pertaining to the Armenian Genocide are not in the archives, while the available ones are of limited access.The accusation that Armenians refuse to dialogue with Turks is another myth.Numerous attempts have been made by the Armenian Government and the Armenian Diaspora to dialogue with Turks. These attempts have failed because of the Turkish Government’s intransigent and unreasonable conditions. The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) is a prime example. Turkish and Armenian members of TARC agreed to submit the arbitration of the Armenian Genocide issue to a third party–the International Centre for Transitional Justice (ICTJ). When ICTJ’s report concluded that what happened to the Armenians in Ottoman Turkey was a classic case of genocide and fulfilled four out of five conditions set by the UN Genocide Convention, the Turkish government pulled the plug on TARC by asking its Turkish members to withdraw from the commission.In response to the Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s letter to the President of Armenia, to establish a “joint group of historians… to study … the events of 1915,” Robert Kocharian, the President of Armenia, on April 25, 2005, replied by saying: “Your [Erdogan[ suggestion to address the past cannot be effective if it deflects from addressing the present and future, in order to engage in a useful dialogue, we need to create the appropriate and conducive political environment..in that context, an intergovernmental commission can meet to discuss any and all outstanding issues between our two nations.”The Turkish Government did not respond to the Armenian Government’s positive approach to solve this issue. On April 11, 2006, the Foreign Minister of Armenia Vartan Oskanian, reminded the Turkish Government and the international community that “we remain amazed that a letter sent by president Kocharian to Prime Minister Erdogan… remains simply ignored because the Turkish authorities did not like the response contained therein, and do not wish to broaden the scope of dialogue beyond histology.”The Foreign Affairs Committee of the Armenian Parliament organized a conference in the Armenian Parliament on Turkish Armenian relations. Among the invitees were Turkish professor Yusuf Halacoglu (president of Turkish Historical Society), Sedat Laciner (director of International Strategic Research Institute), former Turkish Ambassador Omer Engin Lutem (head of the Armenian Studies Institute of the Eurasian Strategic Research Center), Turkey’s Foreign Minister Ali Babacan, and Dr. Can Paker (Turkey’s special representative for relations with the European Union). None of the Turkish invitees attended this important and unique conference. The Turkish side missed a golden opportunity to meet Armenian politicians, historians and scholars to discuss relations between the two neighboring nations.The Speaker of the Armenian Parliament, Tigran Torosian, voiced his concern that Turkey’s decision not to participate in the discussions would not contribute to dialogue between the two nations.The above examples clearly show that Turkish government’s manipulative offer of dialogue with Armenians is akin to the neo-Nazis’ suggestion of an independent, objective historical commission to determine whether the Holocaust took place or the Flat Earth Society’s offer to hold an academic dialogue with National Geographic about the true shape of the earth.
Atilla LOOOL, you are just sad. Please post some of your sources, and please educate yourself better before emberesing your so called people. Here are some ancient kingdoms that historians all over the world recognize as Armenian. Starting aroun 2500 B.C. Hurian, Mittani, Hye, Nairi, Urartu, and then some, accepted by all western and estern historians, except turks. And Caucasian Albanians, Georgians not turkic, turkic tribes migrated from mongolia. And Khazars yes around 7th B.C. what about them? turkic tribe invaded Caucasia and sloughtered Georgians and Albanians.
Selin, not just fight and die but kill and sloughter like your people did, so maybe 500 years from now Armenians can say take me to court and prove it. And whats your problem with Canada, who was talking about Canada.
No point in arguing with any turk, antiArmenian BS is carved in your brains, you actually believe in your BS.
The truth is as long as turks the people dont recognize the wrong their ancestors did to other coltures not just Armenians but Greeks, Kurds, Assyrians, Georgians, Albanians, Belgians, and the list gose on, if turks dont recognize that in thousend years that they have been aroun they have brought nothing but deth and sufering to others, if turks dont recognize that they are the only country that has so meny enemies in the world, then someone or somecountry will always finde ways to harm turks.
P.S. Thank you Michael, but no point to it, this people are not that educated to understand facts and records and history.
Can’t stop laughing. How far the armenian imagination can go shocks me again. You calso claim that the Noah was armenian. I would get surprised if after some time you will bring paper claiming to be given to the "great geart armenians" by God testifiing their rights to the entire world and especially to the region. ha ha haaaaa.
With your fascism and racism you are capable of this. And none of these states were armenian. Its just armenians wishful thinking that these states that you mention the were armenian. And except Urarty the other states I believe are again the products of the deep and extensive imagination capability of lier armenian historians.
For your information and knoweldge that Khazars and other Turkic were in the region before the birth of Chris and they were already forming the states. Enough just to mention Huns and Atilla who reshaped the western Europe around 4th centry. If Turks could go so deep into Europe aroud 4th century, it means they were in the Cauacusus, Anatolia and the Volga area much more before.
Also it doesn’t matter who came to the region first. It is more than clear than armenians also came from somewhere. Credible resources tell they came from India. Also if Turks shall leave these territories, then Americans, Australians, Canadians, many Latin American whites shall leave these places as well.
You didn’t have a state in these regions except the small one which existed only for 30 years and then vanished permanently. YOu had the second statehool only in 1918 and that was on the land granted to you by Azerbaiajn. Don’t forget that Yerevan has been an Azerbaijani/Turkic city as cited by all credible historical sources.
The story below once more demonstrates the role of armenian translators in distorting facts and giving wrong information to western diplomats, who then did inaccurate reporting of things happened in 1915s. Also the role armenians played in British making Turksih soldiers blind in war prisoner camps in 1920s.
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/POWs-blinded.htm
In WWI, 150 thousand of our soldiers were captured by the British. And some of these soldiers were imprisoned in Seydibesir Useray-i Harbiye Camp (3) near the city of Alexandria in Egypt. The full name of the camp was “Seydibesir Kuveysna Osmanli Useray-i Harbiye (4) Kampi”. In this camp, the Ottoman soldiers of 16th Division’s 48th Regiment who were captured at the Palestine fronts in 1918 were interned. For two years until June 12th, 1920, they were subjected to any kind of torture, oppression, heavy insults and humiliation.
The reason for this inhumane treatment was the Armenians.
The British commanders of the camp, because of the wrong, mendacious translations and provocations of Armenian translators who knew Turkish, had become fierce Turk enemies.
***
The war was over. Nevertheless, to release the soldiers besides the ones who died because of heavy conditions in the camp was not to the benefit of the British. Because the British were brainwashed by Armenians, being told that in a potential new war they could come up against these soldiers again. The solution was massacre…
Our soldiers, forced by bayonets, were put in disinfection pools with the excuse of wiping out germs. But the chemical, krizol, was added a lot more than normal in the water. Even just when they put their feet, our soldiers got scalded. However, the British troops didn’t let them get out of the pool by threatening with rifles (5).
Our soldiers didn’t want to put their heads under the water that reached waist level. But then the British started shooting in the air. Our soldiers knelt and put their heads under water not to die.
But the ones who got their heads out of the water couldn’t see any more. Because the eyes were burned…The resistance of our soldiers who saw what happened to the ones that got out was no use and our 15 thousand men got blinded.
***
This savagery was discussed in May 25th, 1921, in the Turkish Great National Assembly. The congressmen Mr. Faik and Mr. Seref proposed that 15 thousand sons of this country were blinded in Egypt by being put in the “krizol” pool; and wanted the Assembly to make an attempt for punishment of the British physicians, commanders and soldiers who were guilty of this act.
Of course the newly founded government had a thousand other problems. Demanding an explanation for this act was easily forgotten.
***
But they don’t forget. They show even their own betrayal as a fact of genocide and present it to the world.
The most regrettable of all is that some people, you know who, are also behind, supporting these defamation campaigns.
Sinan AYGUN – The President of ATO
Excuse me, a vow to defend one’s territory gets interpreted as threatening "new genocide"? Lame, lame, lame… Lame because that’s all you can do in your propaganda. Threaten to get back the territory, and when given a short response that your "a** will be handed back to you", cry a new "genocide threat".
So I guess one should never mention stuff like "Turks kicked some European ass in WW1". Or mention that they may indeed kick some Armenian a** in a possible faceoff in the future, including who knows some soccer match in a world tournament. Because hello, clearly THAT’s threathening with a new genocide !!!!
How sorry is that? Because only when Turks dare defend themselves in the face of total destruction are their actions of self-defense interpreted as "genocide", just like what happened during the WW1. The hypocrisy of it all is just all too familiar AND, and, and, extremely pathetic. The absolute racism of all commentary above, including the "race purity" claims of Armenians while making their case for historic land ownership, is the icing on the cake.
We have ANCA speakers ON RECORD vowing to reclaim Western Armenia. We don’t need a millionth link to stuff like that or to ANCA press releases. Poligazette has published such stuff before.
Ay Atilla the Mutt SOURCES please, everything I posted can easely be found on Wikipedia or Encarta, or any library other then turkic. What you doing is blabering pointlesly and emberesing yourself.
Yerevan Turkic Azeri? LOOOOOOOL, may I ask what you smokin? is it some of that turkic hashish? that just shows how much you know, and post your credible historical sources.
"The history of Yerevan dates back to the 8th century BC, with the founding of the Urartian fortress of Erebuni in 782 BC at the western extremity of the Ararat plain." Wikipedia, if you have credible sources that say other all you have to do is post it on wikipedia and chalange the facts. I understand that turks wana have civilized history and colture like Armenians, its ok you can say part of your colture is Armenian and that when mongol hords invaded Armenia many things like how to read and write, and how to use a spoon and a fork where learnd from Armenians, dont be ashamed, it is ok.
Correction: "Turks kicked some European ass in WW1" actually, Turks did NOT do that during WW1. To the contrary, the entire country was invaded and being prepared to be carved up by European powers. Turks kicked some European ass during the "War of Independece" which began a year after WW1.
The Last Manumentsi. Your response is a clear indicator of the fact that you are one of the many brainwashed and illetare armenians with good knoweldge of English.
For your information and education my armenian counterpart. "Nations or countries with strong civilization and culture do not vanish like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkic world, etc. " Indeed for your information that recent genetic studies have found much more commong genes between armenians and mongols than any toher nation in the region and mongols. It seems that mongols have also met a lot of armenian women on their way to Caucasus. That is also for your information.
Also don’t show me wikipedia and other racist armenian sources as creidble sources of information and facts. We know who writes the articles that you mention in wikiped. there are thousands of fundamentalist and fascist armenians writing and vandalizing wikipedia daily. Wikiped has become in recent years an information trash web site thanks to armenians. So pls don’t try to prove me something with the biased and armenian written stuffs in wikipedia.
Everything I said are based on credible sources as distinct from your armenian dreams, historical lies and allegations which became almost template or armenian factists attack on turks.
Your argument on the history of Yerevan is quite impressive and is another indicator to where the armenian imagination can go. I am jsut glad that and think the world shoudl be glad that you, armenians, don’t claim to be original settlers of Rome, Istanbul, Kiev, Tabriz, Tbilisi, or even Bejing, indeed all the cities in the world. With your imagination capacity, you are capable of saying and arguing that even the life only belongs to Armenians and others shall die.
To the last or the first armenian fundamentlist. For your information and education. "Nations or countries with strong civilization and culture do not vanish like your so called "great armenia", the product of the armenian liers imagination. The strong cultures and civilizations like Turkic ones remain like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkic world, Tatarstan, many other Turkic origin states in Europe such as Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. " Again for your information. recent genetic studies have found much more common genes between armenians and mongols than any other nation in the region. It seems that mongols have also met a lot of armenian women on their way to region. That is also for your information. For third, when wikipedia became a credible source of information. All articles written about armenia are written by fundamentalist and fascist armenians. Just check out the discussion sections of any article on armenia, and you will see hundreds of facsist armenian writers producing tons of garbage and imaginary artices on the "small history of the great great great armenian fascist nation" . So never ever mention me your useless articless in wikipedia as a credible source of info on armenians. Your argument on the history of Yerevan is quite impressive and is another indicator to how long the armenian imagination can go. I am just glad that and think the world shoudl be glad that you, armenians, don’t claim to be original settlers of Rome, Istanbul, Kiev, Tabriz, Tbilisi, or even Bejing, indeed all the cities in the world. With your imagination capacity, you are capable of saying and arguing that even the life only belongs to Armenians and others shall die. For yur education see the source below on the history of Irevan http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=301
John, you have got to be kidding me. Who are you to call us spewing long-term hatred when Turkish youth is raised with an open mind and Armenian youth is raised with hatred towards Turks? From when onwards is trying to defend yourself against false accusations has become spewing hatred? Do you know aything about ANCA? Have you heard anything about system of a down? Has not Steve Cohen been harrassed recently by an Armenian filmmaker just because he denied the so called genocide? Turks are so ignorant about events of 1915 because they believe they are innocent and they are leading their normal lives. You on the other hand live with a dream of Turkey recognising the events of 1915 as genocide. Get a life. The Last Manumentsi, who are you to call us uneducated when you can not even answer anything written above or make any proper statement other than saying that ‘Turks have lots of enemies’. This declaration of yours only is sufficient to make people understand what we are dealing with, pure propaganda and hatred towards Turks, blaming Turks for things that are actually being done by yourselves. Turks have enemies maybe because they are ALIVE and not written off from earth by other REAL ETHNIC CLEANSINGS all around the world. Turks have enemies maybe because they were never oppressed under Ottoman ruling and were able to get their own land and freedom in the end. Turks have enemies maybe it is because of the propaganda you are part of. What a joke. Do you know anything about Ottoman History? Who are you to judge me or my nation and then accuse me of denial? Have you heard anything about Armenian terrorism? I suggest you go read a book by an Austrian professor and historian called Ericq Feigl. The name of the book is Armenian Mythomania.
Elif,
If the Turkish youth has been raised in blissful ignorance, that is the Turks’ problem. Turks have also been brought up by the myth that Anatolia is the cradle of the Turkish civilization that dates back to an 8000 year history, and that the origin of world nations of the world is actually Turkish.
Well one can choose to live in a colourful mythological world if one wants, and be happy with the bliss that comes with it, but it is quite something else to construct and fabricate the history of other people to suite this mythological and make-belief world. Which ultimately makes no room to the "minor incident" of the destruction of the Armenian nation in the Ottoman Empire.
You have proven, time and again that you choose to be ignorant about the Armenian history, probably driven by a fear that learning the history of the Armenians will shake the mythological construct of what the Turkish youth have studied in their schools to date.
I am hopeful that this will change, because as Turks accuse Armenians of indoctrinating their children the same can be said for Turkish youth. Too much indoctrination, in the name of patriotisn always clashes with reality, but reality (truth) ultimately wins, this is why there are revolutions.
And Michael, I suggest you check out the link below before you claim that Armenia is not after land from Turkey. Temporary political interests may refrain a country from showing its long-term agenda but the truth is always out there. Whom are you kidding? armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/11/2177-armenian-constitution-and.html As for the international historical convention, what I was talking about was a joint commission with unbiased and objective historians from all around the world with an open mind to start with, not a commission from Turkish and Armenian side only, people that are born biased and I was talking about DISCUSSIONS or DEBATES. Your referral to appointment of ICTJ by TARC is even cherry picked and one – sided. Check out the link below.
armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2005/07/41-analysis-of-genocide.html According to ICTJ, Armenian massacres of Ottoman Muslims before and during WW1 for their so called freedom should also be labelled as genocide. Oh sorry approximately half a million Ottoman Muslim lives lost do no count, do they? Hunchak activities dating back to 1860s and Dashnak activities dating back to 1890s do not count, do they? Rebels like Van or Zeytun (I can count many more here), do not count do they. How hyprocrat you are. But that is my fault. I knew what I was getting myself into but I could not keep my mouth shut. Let’s label every war and mismanaged relocation order as genocide since some of our Armenian friends want it that way here. Ohh also let’s disrespect the dead of Ottoman side and ignore the lives lost since Turks have lots of enemies anyway. And finally it is so ironic of you to say that Turkish side does not give full access to historians for its archives and some of the documents were purposefully destroyed. Check out the links below. armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/05/1709-turkish-state-archives-are-open.htmlarmenians-1915.blogspot.com/2005/11/442-in-pursuit-of-ottoman-turkish.htmlarmenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/12/2256-book-review-by-ataa-shameful-act.htmlarmenians-1915.blogspot.com/2005/07/341-armenian-issue-allegations-facts.html I can give you more links but I know already that you are going to try to undermine them anyway by saying that your sources are all free from bias and mine are all biased. Same old same old but as I said before, that is me, I can not keep my mouth shut.
John, by ignorance I meant how Turkey side so moved on and does not hang onto a part of history that they think is true. I am not talking about being disrespectful to anyone’s history or culture. If that is what you want to take out of it although I believe my message is as clear as a day, that I can not do anything about and I would not be surpried to be honest. We moved on because we know we are innocent and we believe truth will eventually speak for itself (hopefully).
My husband is a dentist. He has Armenian patients living in Turkey. My inlaws have Armenian neigbours living in the same apartment building as theirs. We live in peace in Turkey. We are not raised with any hatred towards anyone but I can not tell the same for Armenian youth. That was what I was talking about.
And where did you get the idea that Turks believe they ruled in these lands for 8.000 years? Do you live in Turkey? Do you know anything about Turkey? Do you know anything about Middle Asia?
Oh by the way John, since you are accusing me of being ignorant about Armenian history, my suggestion to The Last Manumentsi about reading Armenian Mythomania holds for you as well.
Maybe than you will reconsider your thoughts about my ignorance of Armenian history or you will rethink about what I meant by Turks being ignorant about events of 1915 and then actually understand what I meant.
Bla bla bla, credible historical sources please, you mutts are emberesing yourselfs. If Wikipideia or Encarta are not good enough, which are good enough for the rest of the world try any library outside of turky. Recent genetic studies? buy who? any facts or is this blabering again, And you Elif blogs are not credible sources, a credible source is a fact accepted by recognized world historians, which turks have non. And not every book is a credible source, Harry Potter not a credible source.
When it comes to Armenians slaughtering turks, we never denie it, we just say we didnt kill enough to call it ganocide, we will try better next time.
P.S. I wasnt raised hating turks, recent genetic studies show that hate for turks was in my blood when I was born.
Did you check the links The Last Manumentsi, did you check where the blogs were making reference to? I highly doubt so. You saw the blog word in it and did not even check it. Did you check the part about Armenian Constitution? Do you know anything about Prof. Justin Mccarthy? Ohh sorry most probably he is bought out by Turkish side so how can we believe in him? Besides, it is very disrespectful of you to try to undermine Erich Feigl by comparing his book to Harry Potter but it is not suprising.
It was a mistake of me to try to debate with people seeing us uneducated, does not respect our dead, are ignorant about history (1.500.000 is a legend that Armenian side even can not decide on - your loss is even maybe less than ours - according to the survivor reports of reputable sources like American Counsel J.B. Jackson and population analysis of Armenian historian A.A.Lalaian, your losses calculated to be somewhere between 300.000 to 500.000) and see all our sources as biased but theirs as pure as white.
This is not a competition The Last Manumentsi, one side’s loss being higher or lower than the other side’s loss does not make the losses less important. As I countinously repeat myself, we never deny the tragedic results of mismanaged recolation order but it was SELF DEFENSE and last time I checked self defense was not categorized under genocide. If we evaluate every mass dead according to the result and not the INTENTION, every considerable war, rebel or relocation order on earth becomes genocide. Whom am I kidding, I am talking in vain. Indeed I could end my comment like, ‘Atilla thanks a lot but do not bother, these uneducated people will not be able to understand what you are writing’, but I should not do that, should I, cos it would be rude, arrogant and ignorant, isn’t it?
Elif, you are right. In the long run Armenian show their real face like the last monumetsi/fundamentalist. He also revealed what armenians know but prefer not to tell. It was them who killed us and they hate us with or without the reason. They want to kill and elminite us. The so -called genocide claim is also a long-term policy aimed at eliminating Turkey and Azerbaijan.
However, thank last monumetsi for revealing your and Armenians’ real character and face, full of inhumanism and fascism.
Excerpt from the armenian fundamentalist’s revealations:
"When it comes to Armenians slaughtering turks, we never denie it, we just say we didnt kill enough to call it ganocide, we will try better next time.
P.S. I wasnt raised hating turks, recent genetic studies show that hate for turks was in my blood when I was born."
Armenians hate Turks, because they couldn’t finish their job of killing all of them. AS last monumetsi mentions, he seems to extremly sorry as many armenians that they couldn’t kill enough Turks. For them more than half a million Turks, Kurds and Azerbaijanis killed is not enough. For them 30000 Azerbaijani Turks they killed in 1990s is not enough. FOr them driving almost a million Azerbaijani Turks out of their land and suibjecting them to living in awful and inhuman conditions for more than 15 years is not enough.
Armenians are thirsty for the Turksih blood. They are not sufficed with the blood they drunk, just want more. The current armenia and armenians are part of the disease called armeniavampirism.
Until Armenias president doesnt come out saying that we want eastern turkey back than i dont care about anyone else who says it. Vartan Oskanyan is a very smart and respected man and he said the kars treaty is intact as far as im concerned. you say that armenia has territorial claims against turkey.
Armenians dont dey turks died but Turkey was involved in a war at the time. majority of there deaths were war causualties. the rest were killed by armenians who were trying to defend themselves because they were being forcefully removed from there homes and made to walk to there deaths. you think we would just let you kill us? We defended ourselves.
Also the Turkish Government agents cite the same half-dozen historians and writers to back their allegations. Practically everyone listed has taught history at institutions where their chair has been funded by the Turkish government. These historians have close relationships with the government of Turkey; have privileged access to Turkish historic archives and are provided with frequent all-expense paid trips to Turkey. The publication of their books are often funded by the government of Turkey. Many genocide scholars have questioned the credibility of these half-dozen historians. Colin Imber, in the British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, called Justin McCarthy’s work: “Junk food, junk bonds and now junk history … This is a cruel description, but one which is perfectly appropriate for a book which is carelessly written, is often misinformed, and shamelessly follows a Turkish nationalist agenda.” Ton Zwaan, in de Volkskrant (Dutch newspaper) wrote: “Among bona fide historians McCarthy is known as one of the professional deniers, subsidized by the Turkish government.” Zwaan continued: “In a groundless, hazy and disorderly argumentation replete with half-truths and complete untruths, McCarthy attempts to persuade his readers that an Armenian genocide never transpired in the Ottoman Empire in 1915 and 1916.” Many Turkish historians, among them Taner Akcam and Muge Gocek, also questioned McCarthy’s research and trustworthiness. Guenter Lewy is a well know revisionist. His work–from the killing of Roma Gypsies in the Second World War to the Vietnam War–is well documented. This is what the Journal of Genocide Research wrote: “Lewy’s . . . book which seeks not only to exclude the Nazis’ Romani victims from the Holocaust-which is not anything new-but goes a step further to say that they were not even the targets of attempted genocide. . . ‘The Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies’ is a dangerous book.” After reading Lewy’s biased article on the Armenian Genocide, Prof. Gregory H. Stanton, said: “I am appalled. It is such a blatant denial article . . . As you know, the evidence for the Armenian genocide does not just rest upon the three sources Guenter Lewy attempts to discredit. (He doesn’t even do a good job of discrediting those sources.) It also rests on literally thousands of eye-witness testimonies, eyewitness reports by diplomats and missionaries, and a mountain of other data. Lewy’s article is directly contrary to the official opinion of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, passed by unanimous resolution, declaring that the Armenian massacres were genocide, and that attempts to deny that fact have no basis in sound scholarship.”Norman M. Naimark from Stanford University recently reviewed Guenter Lewy’s latest book for the jounral Holocaust and Genocide Studies. Naimark concluded that “… if Lewy wishes to maintain his claims to historical objectivity by using accepted judicial definitions of genocide, then the difficulty of finding direct evidence for the Young Turks’ premeditated planning of mass murder should not prevent him from concluding that genocide took place. At its core, then Lewy’s argument is illogical.”The International Association of Genocide Scholars, in a letter to the Turkish Prime Minister labelled such historians as “scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.” One of the historians Turks often cite to buttress their denialist arguments is Bernard Lewis. Mr. Lewis has been convicted in French court for denying the Armenian Genocide. His flip-flopping on the Armenian Genocide is well documented. In an earlier version of his book, “The Emergence of Modern Turkey,” Lewis wrote: “A struggle between two nations for the possession of single homeland, that ended with the terrible holocaust of 1915, where a million and half Armenians perished.”
Michael, that was what I was talking about, historians claiming that there is not enough evidence to prove a genocide are all junk historians, the rest is just fine. What sort of an approach is this?
This is not a competition of whose historian is better than the other or whose loss is more important than the other. Do you know anything about what led to Tehcir Law? Do you anything about the lives lost because Armenians were after their so called freedom? I am not talking about losses during WW1 although I am not undermining them, I am talking about losses long before that as I indicated before, losses that has nothing to do with the events of 1915 but eventually led to the events of 1915. So do not come to me with self defense, self defense is Tehcir Law.
You are talking about official announcements for land claim. What sort of an approach is that? Which politician would do such a thing unless he is after actual hot war with the country he is declaring that to? You are after land or any other compensation not through war but through political attempts, as noted by you, French Parliament passing a legislation is a very nice example of that. I feel like I am repeating myself here but I have to unfortunately, political efforts of land claims from Turkey through constitutionally indicating that Eastern Anatolia is Western Armenia and intimidating historians by these legislations and preventing them even from debating about the issue and then blaming them with flip flops. Would you want to go to prison for saying that there is not enough evidence to prove the genocide or vice versa? Don’t you see how politicized this issue is? Don’t you see that all these claims and counter-claims even are enough to prove that you can not label the events as genocide?
I thought we covered the 1.500.000 issue so I will not even go there and as far as IAGS is concerned, it is sponsered by Zoryan Institute so it will never suprise me that they historically think that there is a genocide (with your logic at least)
If Turkish Diaspora was half as active as Armenian Diaspora, this debate would not get out of control this severely. I can list here many references that will show inconsistencies in pro-genocide historians but will it make any difference? I guess not. You are talking about Turkish goverment sponsored historians but as always one-sidely you are not talking about Armenian Diaspora sponsored historians. Indeed you are (ie. IAGS) but according to you they are all free from bias. How can a historian not be sponsored, I am asking you. They must be quite rich to sponsor themselves and being sponsored by one side will never mean that they are actually bought out but with your logic IAGS is also bought-out.
Just try to look at the issues with an open-mind and try to assess the other side as well, do not look for historians supporting your belief, look for truth. I am now reading a book by Hrant Dink, published in Turkish. It was originally prepared for TESEV but it was not published until after his death. Although I do not agree with many things he said there, it helps me to empathy, a thing that we definitely need if we are after truth and solutions. I am writing this to you because you are at least reasonably debating with me about historians and instutions baised or not. Otherwise I would not.
I agree with you that no smart politician would come out and claim land. But awhile back i remember, how the azeri govt vlaims that yerevan belongs to them, that Turkey was claiming yerevan as there own and that the russians supposedly gave yerevan to the armenians. The went to court wanting yerevan back and when armenia told them to show there proof they had none. right now azerbaijan still claims yerevan is theres with aliyev backing it up. also do you thnk azerbaijan has a right to karabakh? In my opinion the ottomen empire took over that land and now its theres, armenia took over karabkh and now its theres.
About the fighting leading up to the genocide. Armenians were being massacred before. have you heard about the hamidian massacres from 1894-1896? What about the adana massacre in 1909.
In May 1915, Mehmed Talat Pasha requested that the cabinet and Grand Vizier Said Halim Pasha legalize a measure for relocation and settlement of Armenians to other places due to what Talat Pasha called "the Armenian riots and massacres, which had arisen in a number of places in the country." Talat Pasha was referring specifically to events in Van and extending the implementation to the regions in which alleged "riots and massacres" would affect the security of the war zone of the Caucasus Campaign. Later, the scope of the immigration was widened in order to include the Armenians in the other provinces. On 29 May 1915, the CUP Central Committee passed the Temporary Law of Deportation ("Tehcir Law"), giving the Ottoman government and military authorization to deport anyone it "sensed" as a threat to national security. The "Tehcir Law" brought some measures regarding the property of the deportees, but during September a new law was proposed. By means of the "Abandoned Properties" Law (Law Concerning Property, Dept’s and Assets Left Behind Deported Persons, also referred as the "Temporary Law on Expropriation and Confiscation"), the Ottoman government took possession of all "abandoned" Armenian goods and properties. Ottoman parliamentary representative Ahmed Riza protested this legislation:
On 13 September 1915, the Ottoman parliament passed the "Temporary Law of Expropriation and Confiscation", stating that all property, including land, livestock, and homes belonging to Armenians, was to be confiscated by the authorities.
I know what the techir law is, i know what led to it. the massacres hes talking about is known as the van resistance against Jevdet Bey and the ottoman army tying to eliminate the armenian population.
Michael, you are still looking at the issues one-sidely and in isolation and it is not Armenians who had been massacred first unfortunatley and it is not only Van by the way. Of course I am aware of events of 1894-1896 and 1909 and but you can not look at historical events in isolation, you have to look at series of events and you have to consider them in the context of the world conditions back then. I have commented about revolutionary actions of Armenians before and I am sure you know about Huncaks and Dashnaks and their acitivities. What you are tyring to show as reactions to so called Ottoman oppression of Armenians are indeed revolutionary acts of Armenians to get their so called freedom. Check out the links below if you will not question their objectivity as well.
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/armenian-revolt-documentary
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/armenian-revolutionary-federation-dashnaks
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/davit-armenian-informer-1908
Isn’t it unfair of you to talk about Azeris that they claim Karabakh land back when the due land is being invaded by Armenia presently and when innocent Azeri lives were being taken by Armenians in Khojaly in 1992?
Claim of land from Armenian side is not a conspiracy theory or paranoia, it is, although maybe not officially, indicated by Armenian side.
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/anca-our-sacred-duty-reclaim-western-armenia-eastern-turkey
The link you posted was a speech from a member of the ANCA. The armenian population in armenia is different than the diaspora outside. the outside diaspora has claims against turkey but like i said i havent heard people in armenia make that claim and until armenias president comes out and says it i dont care what anyone else says. he want to open the border with no preconditions and the only conditions were the genocide and karabagh.
also arent you being onesided also? basically your saying that armenia began massacring turks and turks had to defend themselves and with the issue of karabagh, armenia invaded and killed azeris when in fact armenia was trying to stop the azeris from ethnically cleansing karabagh.
your links below have some quotes from justin mccarthy but like i stated bove alot of historians, not all funded by the armenian diaspora, criticizing his work calling it junk.
also recently Volkan Vural, turkey’s former ambassador to Russia, said that turkey should apologize to the armenians.
ANKARA — Turkey must immediately apologize to Armenians for the "tragic events of the past," said Volkan Vural Turkey’s former ambassador to Russia during the late 1980s, reported the Taraf Turkish newspaper."Although it is difficult to imagine that Turkey would recognize the Genocide, nevertheless, it must apologize to the Armenians and other ethnic minorities–Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds–for displacing them and massacres, and allow them to return to the land of their ancestors and become Turkish citizens," said Vural."The return of assets and financial restitution are difficult issues to tackle. However, it would be possible to make a symbolic offer of financial restitution," explained Vural, saying that making an apology is an "imperative for a country like Turkey.""The Armenian question cannot be resolved by a commission of historians. Such a commission can only help in the resolution process by analyzing some of the issues," said Vural, adding that the Armenian question can be resolved only by political leaders."Diplomatic relations between the two countries must be established, without wasting any time," added Vural, who said that the opening of the bo