Turkey’s and Armenia’s Presidents Meet
In what can truly be described historic, Turkey’s President Abdullah Gül met with his Armenian counterpart earlier today. Armenia’s President Serzh Sargsyan had invited Gül to Yerevan, the country’s capital, to watch a soccer match between his own country and Turkey.
After much deliberation Gül decided to take the offer. He went to Armenia today where he was welcomed by a variety of Armenian politicians.
Gül’s visit is controversial in both countries. Armenians claim that the Ottomans committed genocide on them during the First World War, while Turks argue that both sides committed crimes against each other and that the Ottoman government did not a plan to kill the entire Ottoman population, or a part of it for that matter.
Armenia has pursued an aggressive policy about this issue for years. It has, together with the Armenian Diaspora in Western countries, tried to get foreign governments to accept their claims passionately. This has angered Turks who consider the genocide movement to be racist, nationalist, and unfair to history. Historians, Turks rightfully argue, are divided on the issue, with the weightier ones (such as Norman Stone of Oxford and Bernard Lewis of Princeton) disagreeing with the Armenian thesis.
The relationship between the two countries became even more difficult in the early 1990s when Armenia invaded neighboring Azerbaijan. Azerbaijanis are a Turkic people - they and Turks share a common ancestory, language and culture - and the Turks considered the invasion to be illegal. Armenia argued it only did what it had to do to protect fellow Armenians living in the Ngoro-Karabagh region.
In response to the destruction caused by Armenia, Turkey closed the border between the two countries. Armenia’s economy suffered immediately and continues to suffer because of it. The country’s leaders, however, held on to their nationalism and even extremism claiming that they had the right to their ‘historic homeland.’
As such Gül’s visit can truly be called historic. It may very well signify a change in the attitudes of both countries.
It is unlikely, however, that the relationship will improve much as long as Armenia continues to press the genocide issue and does not offer a reasonable solution for the Ngoro-Karabagh problem.
Last edited at 3 PM ET.
"such as Norman Stone of Oxford and Bernard Lewis of Princeton"
Surprise surprise, Jews discounting historical FACTS (documented and accepted as such in SEVERAL countries) of the Armenian Genocide. After distinguished historians have proven the clear lies of the Holohoax they have not only been silenced but JAILED.
WHY?? Id there something to hide?? Haha …
Its alright, the world knows the truth, and that is good enough, despite this VERY WELL-financed campaign to bury the facts.
GO ARMENIA!!
"despite this VERY WELL-financed campaign"
You mean ANCA campaign and lobbying, right?
Ara I am Armenian as well and share your pain but your comments about Jews is it necessary? Insulting somebody else makes you feel better ? Its important we clearly understand the difference between
individuals and peoples, blurring those lines is what led to Jewish and Armenian annihilation in this century remember? It wasn"t that long ago!
Ara’s comment is part of a long history of Armenian anti-Semitism, which has resulted in tremendous support among them for the Nazis. Of course it should also not be forgotten that Armenian militants killed thousands of Jews when they wanted to create an independent nation-state of their own before, during, and after World War One. Sadly creating such a state would mean that the lands had to be ethnically cleansed since Armenians formed a minority in the lands they claimed for themselves. Not only Turks but also Jews were victims of this Armenian nationalism.
In recent years, anti-Semitism has increased in Armenia. It can be seen in protests in Yerevan and among Armenian youths and students. Only recently photos showed up of a big protest of Dashnaks in Armenia, carrying Nazi symbols with them.
Selin, yes you’re correct, ANCA is OWNED by Jews and is a joke. Good insight!
Karen,
its interesting (and inaccurate) that you use the word "insulting."
So stating the obvious TRUTH is insulting??
Now since you commented on this, YOU cite ONE Jewish organization which supports our Genocide recognition efforts, then I will accept your comment as valid.
Michael, Khazars are NOT Semites. Lets begin with just that simply fact.
Matter of fact, I support the REAL Semites e.g., the Palestinians, Syrians etc., who are being terrorized, brutalized, raped, murdered, etc etc etc., by the "Jews", i.e., Khazars, for your information.
So it’s all the Jews fault again. Same old, same old…
BTW are you a neo-nazi or a leftist? It’s difficult to tell nowadays.
I think the correct word is Armenian nationalist or Dashnak. They resemble both to a degree, though.
Actually not really, the weak are always persecuted in history Ara.
The Jews, the Africans, the Asians, the Turks, have all been persecuted in many nations, because they are different and because they are weak. Not to mention, the fact, that when the Turks were NOT weak, people held their grudges.
The Jews have not done anything wrong. The Turks have treated their subjects with much tolerance.
For example, do you know why no one hates the Romans? No one hates the British? or the French? Quite a number of people hate all these people, but the problem is, most of them are DEAD.
To elaborate, many ex-Ottoman nations, Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Serbians, Arabs, Kurds, Armenians and many others HATE the Turks… But they hate them because they use to be strong, and because they are different, and now they are weak. In fact, these people who hate the Turks, always seem to forget that their Churches, language, culture, and religion all survived 800 years of Ottoman rule. So one has to wonder how much irrational Nationalism has contributed to this hatred, the ability to show power over others.
Of course it should also not be forgotten that Armenian militants killed thousands of Jews when they wanted to create an independent nation-state of their own before, during, and after World War One.
Indeed, Michael.
The dashnaks killed
1) Around 10,000 Ottoman Jews during the World War One:
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=18582
2) At least 3,000 Mountain Jews in the Caucasus, during few month of 1918-1919:
http://www.today.az/news/politics/25410.html
The chiefs of the criminal Armenian gangs, who killed thousands of Jews and hundreds of thousands of Muslims, are today official heroes of the Dashnak Party (Armenian Revolutionary Federation). The dashnaks did never apologize for this mass killings.
Many Jews did not forget it:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188392527835&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
I don’t tae what an azeri paper says about the armenans seriously. The azeris blame Armenians for everything so they have no credibility. there is alot of anti-armenian propaganda in azerbaijan trying to persuade the people to hate armenians even more than they do now. also the karabakh war was started by azerbaijan bombing stepanakert and armenia protecting its citizens, trying to prevent azerbaijan from, yet again, ethnically cleansing its territories.
Umh, I am afraid that you forget to mention that Azerbaijan had to use force because Armenia supported extremists in that region who started attacking Azeris and their troopers in their own freaking province.
It seems the Russians did to Georgia what Armenia did to Azerbaijan.
as the south ossetians will tell you the russians saved them from the georgians who were killing them. the russian intervention saved south ossetian people from genocide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
armenians saved the armenians in karabagh who were being ethnically cleansed by the azeris.
Armenia has always relied on Russia for protection in the past. So to come to the defense of Russia is not surprising. I do not agree with any kind of forceful invasion, whether it would be Iraq, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, or Georgia! No country has any right to force themselves on any one else. However, the post was not about the "invasions" in the world. This is a sad fact that happens every where…. The post was about Gul’s visit. Which I am not as optimistic as the author. It is impossible to deal with a whole nation of Turkish haters! And now I realized some even hate Jews… ooo racism runs deep among the Armenians in this blog. Who will they hate next? Blacks perhaps??? That train is never later….!!!!!
It is truly amazing, if not altogether funny, how you guys thrive on creating something that actually is not there.
Contrary to your wishful thinking Armenians are not anti-Semites, there are a lot of cooperation between Armenian and some Jewish organizations in the United States and Europe. You take the words of an individual and make a generalized commentary out of it, perhaps you don’t realize it but kind of generalization is called racism, although it is highly probable that it suites your anti-Armenian hysteria.
Michael, you say:
"Ara’s comment is part of a long history of Armenian anti-Semitism"
then continue…
"it should also not be forgotten that Armenian militants killed thousands of Jews when they wanted to create an independent nation-state of their own before, during, and after World War One."
There is no such a thing as a "long history of anti-Semitism" among the Armenians. That is a pure fiction. There are individuals or small pockets that harbour racist feelings. But you would be less than disingenuous if you argue that only Armenians have such groups. There is a healthy dose of anti-Semitism in Turkey, in Europe, including among the Dutch.
Let us not play "Holier than thou" here.
As for Armenians killing "thousands" of Jews as you state, that is also pure fiction propagated by the Azeris, which explains you buying such lies as you have just returned from Azerbaijan.
What you claim can only be considered as an erroneous opinion at best because none of that can be proven, because there is not an iota of truth in it.
A little history lesson,
Nagorno-Karabakh flared up in February 1988 where massive street demonstrations in Stepanakert resulted in clashes between Armenian demonstrators and the local Azeri police. A rumor, yes a rumor about the slaying of two Azeri policemen in Stepanakert was used by Azeri authorities to unleash a massive pogroms in Sumgait, a city of large Armenian population a mere 40 km north of Baku.
That is how all hell broke loose. This did not happen in 1915, but as recently as 1988. We all saw it and remember it well.
We Turks remember many killings and atrocities committed by the Armenians as well. Not only leading up to 1915 but also 1970-1980’s. Welcome to the club. Plus! If you read my comments I SAID, SOME Armenians on this BLOG!!! NOT ALL Armenians every where. The reason I would never say All is because I do not know that many Armenians… But I have gotten to know a few on this blog and they are not exactly kind hearted and all encompassing of diverse ideas. In fact, I can in honesty call SOME of them racist and darn right rude!
nevin,
my comments were directed to the editor-in-chief not you. I agree with you that some Armenians come here and simply say stupid things, as do some Turks, unfortunately this is today’s reality, but instead of rightfully deleting racist comments the Editor thrives on them, in the hopes of "demonstrating" what the Armenians are truly like. To me that is a hysterical and very amateur way of conducting a blog. Reading many Azeri hysterical "opinions" about everything and anything Armenian is the style adopted here, more and more.
As for the murdered Turkish officials and individuals in the 70,s and 80’s, I agree with you and join you in condemning those acts. I am sure one day when there is a mutual understanding about everything about these issues, they (the murdered) Turkish people will be remembered along with 1,500 000 million Armenians, together. At least that is my dream and I cannot rule out that it may soon happen.
John, how long have you been reading articles in this blog?
How many times did you seen the editors delete or not delete racist comments before and now you conclude that editors here try to provoke others?
You are criticising people for lack of history knowledge and yet you qoute 1.500.000. This even alone is sufficient to show how ignorant you are about the events of 1915. What’s next? Are you going to qoute from Hitler?
David, I agree with you about one thing, same old same old. You slap them in the face with truth and yet they continue to come with the same distorted, cherry picked, biased historical knowledge.
John, an advise to you, before you try to show that you actually empathize with Turks or respect their dead and that you are indeed objective and is looking at the issue from both sides, go read that part of history from objective historians, oops sorry the ones saying that there is not enough evidence to prove a genocide are all bought out right? I forgot about that. How pathetic.
I am not going to defend Michael as he is more then capable of defending himself. But the abuse and the insults he puts up with every day by the Armenians on this blog is enough to drive anyone impatient at times…. I would be curious to know how supporters of the Turkish thesis of the events that took place in 1915 would be treated in Armenian blogs??? Some how I am not that optimistic… And Elif is right in saying that the numbers killed are soooo highly exaggerated by the diaspora that it makes their position laughable and their ignorance even more apparent. We are kind of tired of hearing the same old same old!!! I wish Gul’s visit would solve something. But again I am not sure if anyone knows what their doing? Or where this diplomacy would lead to?
There is no such a thing as a "long history of anti-Semitism" among the Armenians. That is a pure fiction.
That’s historical fact. Armenian anti-Semitism was strong and violent, even during the Byzantine age and during the Ottoman classical age:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/jews-of-turkey.htm#anti
Anti-Semitism is an Armenian illness, like a Polish illness. Even the ultra-nationalist writer Claude Mutafian, acknowledged in August of this year that the Armenian Anti-Semitism is clearly worrying, and frequent in Armenia and in “diaspora”. But you would be less than disingenuous if you argue that only Armenians have such groups.
In Turkey and in European Union, nobody burn a foreign flag with David star. In Armenia, the Erevan’s dashnaks burned several Turkish flags with David stars, proclaimed their “anti-Zionism” and their anti-Semitism:
http://www.prima-news.ru/eng/news/articles/2003/5/21/24628.html In Turkey and in European Union, the Anti-Semitic books are forbidden. In Armenia, there are praised by the Union of Writers:
http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/022002Armen.shtml In Turkey and in European Union, it is unthinkable that a government’s official uses of Anti-Semitic propaganda. In Armenia, it is ordinary.
http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/102104Armenia.shtml In Turkey and in European Union, it is forbidden to honor the memoir of Nazi criminals. On the contrary, the dashnaks of USA, Armenia and Lebanon honor the memoir of the Nazi criminal General “Dro” Kanayan:
http://www.hairenik.com/HairenikTV/HA_TV_Clip68.htm
http://www.humanite.fr/spip.php?page=redirection_article&id_article=287967 Moreover, the Anti-Semitism is not at all a monopoly of the dashnaks:
http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/081902Armeni.shtml
I know this will fall on deaf ears here, but I will try to highlight the fact that the Turkish official thesis simply does not commend any respect as far as its truthfulness is concerned. As long as history is dictated from top down and as long as Turkey continues to politicize this issue, opposition thesis to the Armenian version is, and always will remain, pathetically weak.
Turkey on one hand says let historians be the judge, and on the other hand brings about such repressive bills that a Turkish "official" historian will greatly harm him/herself if they go against the imposed history. You cannot get around that.
You have got to be kidding if you think the world buys your assertion that an honest and truly open discussion on this subject is possible in Turkey today. Turkey has woven a deep nationalistic scenario, with the "required" rhetoric that goes hand in hand with an official modern Turkish history. Having pride in belonging to a nation is one thing, having that pride stifle the truth is another. There is an unhealthy association with the truth of the Armenian genocide clashing with Turkish honour that simply stops any progress to achieving any truth in Turkey today.
So your inability to openly confront your history is undestandable. What is strange however on one hand you say the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkish Republic are two entirely different entities, on the other you defend the murderous campaigns of the the defunct and discredited criminal Ittihadist leadership. You regard the accusation against such a regime as accusations against modern Turkey as if they were your own actions. Against all this Armenians see Turks ardently defending such criminals, and conclusions are drawn, unfortunately.
I think President Gul’s visit will help contribute to easing of such feelings especially if history is officially re-looked by today’s Turkish leadership and at least some compassionate words are uttered about the Armenian anihilation from the entire Anatolian homeland, more correctly a Holocaust as Winston Churchil described it in 1930’s or as Aataturk called it "a shameful act", but President Gul only has to ackowledge and mourn the disappearence of the Armenians from their ancestral lands, that would be enough to revise Armenian attitudes towars the Turks. Reading the Turkish Daily News columnists gives certain hope that such a thing can be possible in our lifetime.
Lucrèce
I am glad that you don’t think Turks can harbour anti-Semitic feelings, please do tell me which Turkey are you talking about:
Synagogues bombed, best selling novels written portraying Jews as something close to the Devil, blockbuster movies are made with similar anti-Semitic themes,
yes please tell us about the non-existent anti-Semitism in Turkey.
John, you are accusing Turks for everything the Armenian Diaspora is now doing. Again same old same old.
What are you talking about, politicising by Turkish goverment. You have got to be kidding me. Are we living in the same world? Isn’t it the diaspora that works very hard its way around the world to get countries like Venezuela or Argentina to accept the so called genocide? Isn’t it the same diaspora that has extensive lobbying efforts for France and Switzerland to pass legislations to ban people from even being able to say there is no proven genocide. Isn’t it the same diaspora that harasses American politicians that deny the genocide or seeks for its so called justice through political platforms? Turkey on the other hand with its full clean thoughts and naivity wants to discuss openly the events of 1915 on a HISTORICAL platform or even fine by Armenia seeking its so called justice through international LEGAL platforms.Because Turkey believes that truth will eventually speak for itself. However thanks to extensice lobbying efforts of Armenian Diaspora it can not.
You are not answering anything I commented on about your qoutes and you are continuing to give forged qoutes not by Hitler maybe but by Ataturk and then you are talking about subjectivity of the sources given con-genocide side.
You are even talking about contradictions for Turkey defending Ottoman Empire but seperating itself from the Empire as a different country. Has it come to that point John? Have you lost your way to discuss history through professors and historians and you are trying to find as always other ways or excuses to attack Turkey?
Although you might already be well aware, I will remind you anayway, you can buy books of Turkish historians pro-genocide freely in bookstores in Turkey. Can we say the same for Armenia? Can Armenia sell books of an Armenian historian con-genocide? What are you talking about? This must be a joke.
It is because of people like you that this debate has long gone out of control. You are no more than an anti-Turkish propagandist not interested in truth at all but very interested in land from Turkey in revenge for your so called genocide.
Elif, you are absolutely right in saying, it’s people like John and that type of thinking has lead to the current dead lock between Armenians and Turks. It is that one sided blind accusations that stifles any further progress. False quotes, exaggerated numbers, silencing of any decent in Europe and the US is only a small part of what the Diaspora does! They do not even want to acknowledge the very basic falsehood they spread…. So SAME OLD SAME OLD!