Comparing Reactions
The tragic death of Ohio Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs Jones has resulted in laudatory posts across the ideological spectrum. Conservatives have added their voices to the liberal chorus complimenting her list of “first” achievements.
It is an interesting contrast to the deaths of former Senator Jesse Helms and former White House spokesman Tony Snow. In those cases, conservative eulogies were all but drowned out by the often-vulgar hatred that poured forth from “progressives” in the blogosphere. They made it quite clear that their ideological differences rendered their opponents subhuman and the deaths of those opponents cause for celebrations and vitriol.
As a matter of principle, I am committed to moderate and centrist politics. I believe there are important truths to be found from both liberals and conservatives and even a few marxist-type radicals. But when confronted with the underlying political culture of left and right, it is often difficult not to be disproportionately repelled by the left. Sure, there are haters on the right too — racist groups like Stormfront spring to mind — but they lack the overwhelming numerical dominance that haters appear to enjoy on the left.
Troubling. Wasn’t the new left the movement that was born in rhetoric of “love” in the 1960s and which claims the mantles of “tolerance” and “diversity” now?
UPDATE: When the Arkansas Democratic Party Chair was shot, the leftist blogosphere erupted with sweeping condemnations of the entire conservative movement, especially talk radio, for having caused the violence before any information was available at all as to motive. But when John McCain’s Denver office receives terrorist attacks that are clearly politically motivated, the left is held pure and innocent.










But what if the deceased poured out venom and vitriol themselves?
I don’t know about Tony Snow, but I do know that Jesse Helms often said things that were radically inappropriate and even racist, things you would more expect to hear from a member of the KKK than a US senator.
While it doesn’t seem right to celebrate someone’s death, it also doesn’t seem right to use someone’s death to distort who they really were.
Observation: When conservatives/rightists have died or fallen seriously ill and we have posted brief obit or well-wishing notes on our center-right blog Stubborn Facts, we have ALMOST ALWAYS had to remove some truly nasty comments to conform with our policy of not ****ing on the freshly dead before they are buried*. MOST of those comments went well beyond not just the boundaries of decorum but also those of factual record, into babbling hateful tin-foil land.
We have never had that problem with the short obits or well-wishing notes posted for those on the left, such as Congresswoman Tubbs Jones or other prominent leftie pols such as Ted Kennedy.
Your own mileage as to why this is, though personally I favor the "New Anger" hypothesis.
[*--even our posts on the death of Saddam Hussein were brief and non-celebratory. Yes, we are consistent, though I can't guarantee that we will be so restrained with, say, bin Laden or Castro...but we might.]
You mean like Hunter S. Thompson and George Carlin did, Tom? Yet they weren’t targeted by a post mortem hate campaign. I can also predict with confidence that when leftist haters like Al Franken, Cynthia McKinney, and Michael Moore meet their maker, there will not be the same kind of celebrations and vitriol that accompanied the deaths of Snow and Helms.
You can rationalize the behavior all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that the left disproportionately indulges in behavior that requires that rationalization. And that speaks to an underlying cultural dysfunction on the left that is massive, pervasive, and completely lacking in the self-awareness and self-criticism that "progressives" routinely demand from others.
Also, there is a huge difference between avoiding distortion of the person’s life and indulging in the kind of vulgar, hateful, completely over-the-top vicious comments that were not only tolerated, but were routine and pervasive in the leftist blogosphere.
From a moral perspective, too, I think it’s always important to acknowledge that just about every human being is capable of good as well as bad choices and actions; by focusing on the good that people have done instead of parts of their life which we might consider bad, we distinguish between such people and those who have truly dedicated their entire lives to evil.
Instead of being a distortion, the focus on the good inherent in most everyone is actually a more balanced view of human nature because if we refrain from the hyperbolic reaction to a person’s ‘bad’ actions, we leave room to acknowledge that there are and have been some people who have chosen evil and perpetuated acts that were evil throughout their lives.
Since neither Jason nor I have engaged in any polling of the blogosphere I’d like to avoid discussions about which side has been more hateful.
Nor will I talk about "underlying cultural dysfunctions" of either Right or Left, although I normally find that topic interesting. Suffice to say that I’ve heard a similar analysis of conservatives made by the Left that Jason has made of liberals.
As to Thompson and Carlin, maybe they should have been criticized post-mortem. Carlin, at least, said some very nasty things about religion. However, I don’t know if they’re quite the same as someone like Helms, a senator who, unlike them, was in a position to directly influence policy.
Also, this brings up a related point: Can one really separate the person from the beliefs? Here’s a quote from Tim Fernholz over at Tapped:
"Unlike some on the left, I like to give most of my political enemies the benefit of the doubt, believing that their support for misguided or downright inhumane policies is based on an honest belief that their worldview is fundamentally good. Which means I think most of the Christian right is terrifically wrong, but I can understand why they think they’re right."
I’m not sure I agree with Fernholz; if you think that someone’s beliefs are fundamentally damaging, is it really OK to give them "the benefit of the doubt" because of their "honest believe that their worldview is fundamentally good"? Or because they’re a good person overall?
Or should you instead look at the potential outcomes of their beliefs and use that to decide? To take an extreme example, if someone honestly felt that the Rwandan genocide was a good thing and supported it, would it be OK to say, "Well, you’ve got to understand it’s just part of his worldview, it doesn’t reflect on him as a person."?
Suffice to say that I’ve heard a similar analysis of conservatives made by the Left that Jason has made of liberals.
I’ve heard such but can only relate my own experience and observations. No one expects to find compassion for "the enemy" in the fever swamps of either side. (Of course, no one should expect to find any rationality or good will in the fever swamps either.)
I will still refrain from pissing on the warm bodies of the recently deceased. If one cannot resist the urge, one can at least hold it in long enough to piss on their cold graves instead….after the mourners leave.
Tom, to address your example on the Rwandan genocide, no, I wouldn’t say that the person’s view doesn’t reflect on him but I would say that it is helpful sometimes to understand how or why someone could hold such views and then determine how to best fight against that viewpoint by countering with a different one; and I’d also say that it’s best from a spiritual and moral sense to hate the sin of that viewpoint but continue to love the sinner. Have you read Immaculee’s Ilibagiza’s book, for instance? Even as a victim of that genocide she embraces a forgiving attitude.
You can’t counter evil with more evil or hatred, it’s as simple as that.
Tom, I’m with Jason on this one. No, I haven’t conducted anything that would be considered to be a statistically valid sample for a survey, but I think my observations over many years on college and university campuses bear out his contention -that the left is routinely less civil in its treatment of those it disagrees with than the right. Perhaps part of this may be attributable to youthful excitement and enthusiasm, and that is a fair point. But only to a point, because many faculty engage in the sort of behavior we are alluding to here.
When Hinkley shot President Reagan, I was in an academic department office - and a middle aged professor, who is otherwise a decent and kind husband and father remarked with great venom, "Goddammit, how could the son-of-a-bitch miss at that range! Shit, we’re stuck with that moron of a VP if the old asshole dies." No one was likely to see too many right of center articles, political cartoons and the like posted in faculty offices, or on their doors, but I can recall seeing several of the once obligatory posters of Che as recently as a couple of years ago.
The whole business with the attempt to railroad the Duke lacrosse team wasn’t undertaken by students, but by their professors - middle aged people who one would like to think would know better. Now, Tom, to your point - yes, there ARE some honest and honorable people on the left. One of them is Robert "KC" Johnson whose blog "Durham in Wonderland" and the book he co-authored helped turn the tide and derail Mike Niong’s train before it ran over the athletes. But if you look carefully at postings on many academic blogs, there are a lot of people who attack the few honorable leftists like Johnson who defended the rights of the accused to have genuine due process and complain that by defending the players, he’s working for the racist, sexist enemy. Because many of them make no secret that they believe that white, straight males are the enemy.
Tony Snow’s last scheduled speaking engagement had to be canceled, because, as it turned out, he was dying. That was scheduled in my state. And on my campus, the remarks from the faculty, in the faculty lunch room, were overwhelmingly rude. In fact, most of them would have been considered exceptionally bigoted had they been addressed to a woman, person of color, or homosexual. But no one saw anything unreasonable about them because Tony Snow had been part of the ‘enemy.’
I’m sure it has been said many time. Once again, try this experiment: Listen to what the folks around you are saying about Tony Snow, or Jesse Helms, or President bush - and try saying the same words but change the name to Barack Obama, and see if it remains acceptable. If its offensive, maybe its offensive regardless of whom you are saying it about.
The concept of ‘delegitimizing the enemy’ is and old one - really its pure tribalism. Think Rwanda, or what we’re seeing hints of in South Ossetia and the rest of Georgia, or parts of the Middle East. Defining people who are not exactly like you as sub-human, and therefore killable without compunction. But I have to say the left has been much more willing to do this than the right for the past century. Read _The Black Book of Communism_ and compare the figures of the communists with the deaths caused by the fascists on the right. There’s no comparison which ideology has killed more, and which continues to kill more. Hint: Franco, Allende and the right are pikers compared to the big killers.
I don’t spend much time reading the fringe blogs. But I find it interesting that KOS is considered an acceptable mainstream left blog, and it has regularly had comments calling for the killing of right of center politicians like President Bush and Vice President Cheney, admittedly couched in terms of executions for ‘war crimes,’ and no one seems to see this as anti-social behavior. But let someone make a snide remark about Obama’s association with a racially motivated pastor or his association with a couple of convicted terrorists like Ayers and Dohrn, and this is seen as proof of racism and sexism. Please! Spare me the sob story.
The notion that we have the best of intentions for mankind are pretty universal. the problem is, when you define those who disagree with you as evil, it makes any sort of compromise or discussion impossible. And while I can not see any way to justify the killing in Rwanda, I think it is a terrible failing to connote differences of opinion about matter such as availability of day care, funding for health care programs with genocide. And calling the decision to go to war in Iraq genocidal or criminal is a misuse of both terms in an effort to stake a claim to moral high ground. This is no different than the religious right declaring that abortion is genocide. We hear too much hyperbole from extremists. Unfortunately, I would have to agree with the opening post’s premise - the left, more than the right, is engaging in dehumanizing speech about the people it disagrees with, and treats them as less than human. That’s one man’s observation. Your mileage may vary.
Thanks for reading
If they took the hate out of extreme left wing politics there wouldn’t be anything left.
OTOH, there is enough hate on both sides to go around. The right always pretends that this is a one-sided phenomenon.
Otherwise, Rush would have no audience and Anne Coulter’s books would languish in the discount pile, instead of consistently making the NYT’s bestseller list!
I concede that hatred and ignorance exists on both sides. Thus, your sweeping claim that “the right always pretends that this is a one-sided phenomenon” is unjustified and hypocritical as well as being an unwarranted attack on the personal integrity of those you disagree with (by using the word “pretends”, you imply willful dishonesty — please read the comments policy below before responding again).
I do not concede that, at least within the blogosphere, it exists in anywhere near the same degree. Ann Coulter’s garbage pales in comparison to what one can read on FireDogLake, WhiskyFire, HuffPo, or KOS any day of the week. And while sites from the right like HotAir and RedState often include an unpleasant level of open contempt for the left, they somehow manage to avoid the same level of outrageous vulgarity and open calls for violence that are found with disturbing frequency on sites from the left.
Well, then maybe its just a coincidence that the majority of your posts tend to frame it to indicate that there’s a difference in reactions between left and right, with the most aggregious,extreme behavior occuring on the left of course. Its natural to notice it more when its the OTHER side that’s committing the infractions.
Kim, I submit that you have no legitimate basis to state what the "majority" of my posts are even about at all, let alone to identify any systemic partisan bias in them. Most of the time I don’t even write about U.S. politics at all. And my claim that there is more of it on the left is backed by experience, not partisanship (I’m not a Republican).
Can you identify specific examples of right-wing sites have frequently called for the assassination or imprisonment of their political opponents or routinely used the F-bomb to condemn any and all who disagree like FireDogLake, WhiskeyFire, and Daily KOS do? Or is Ann Coulter the best you have to back up this vague, hand-wavy claim that it is equal on both sides? The simple truth seems to be that within the blogosphere, it IS more egregious on the left than on the right. Consider as evidence the fact that HuffPo published a column in favor of a military coup against a President that they didn’t like. In all the years of Clinton-hatred I saw, I never saw anything like THAT. And that comes on top of the frequent calls that all government officials they don’t like be either killed or imprisoned. These can’t be dismissed as “fringe” sites in the leftist blogosphere — they are the heart and soul of the leftist blogosphere.
I argue that it is unequal not because I am a supporter of "the right". If you had read even close to enough of my posts to be able to back up your sweeping claims about what I write the "majority" of the time, you might have noticed that I am generally an OBAMA supporter and am frequently attacked by "the right" for that as well as for my views on immigration and foreign policy. If you had even bothered to think back on the limited knowledge you do have about posts I have made, you would have recalled that I am not reliably “rightist” in any way. Why does acknowledgment of that fact seemingly never make its way into your comments, even though I have repeatedly pointed it out to you for over a year now? I can think of only two possible reasons — irresponsibility or dishonesty.
Anyway, I state that incivility and indulgence in repressiveness is unequally the fault of "the left" because that is the way I see it, just like Harvey Silverlake at FIRE (a lifelong liberal Democrat) does.
So can the attempts to make this personal and try dealing with the problem. The left in this country has serious cultural deficiencies that simply pointing a dishonestly reciprocal finger towards the right will not wave away.
P.S. The word is "egregious", not "aggregious".
I do remember that during the Clinton years some wanted the Clintons charged with murder for the death of Vincent Foster.
And is this really a case of "cultural deficiency" or a reaction to the incumbent administration? The Bush administration is as unpopular with the Left as the Clinton administration was with the Right (though Bush has had considerably lower approval ratings than Clinton). Is the reaction by the Left really any surprise, given the circumstances?
Jason—I know that you are an Obama supporter. But you have written multiple posts on this subject. I think it may be true that the left expresses some extremism on the web, while the right is more likely to express it on talk radio or cable news shows on Fox. But, the idea that one side is more hate-filled than the other is just naive, imo.