RE: Ergenekon: What’s it Really About?
This is in response to a comment left regarding the original piece, but since Wordpress isn’t posting my comment in reponse, I’m posting my response here.
1. There is a Greater Middle Easet Initiative and Turkey’s PM Erdgoan has publicly announced on more than one occasion that Turkey is one of its co-leaders. This fact has been published in Turkish newspapers and Erdogan has stated it in televised interviews on Turkish television.
2. See point number 1 above.
3. This is your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to express, just as the article, tagged “Opinion” is becoming mine, or really, my working hypothesis, which I too am entitled to express.
4. The map, which you find funny, was prepared by retired U.S. Lieutenant-Colonel Ralph Peters, and published in the Armed Forces Journal in June 2006. In late 2006, it was displayed in NATO’s Military College in Rome, Italy, where it was seen by Turkish military officials who had a very strong reaction to it and took it very seriously. Turkish Chief of Staff, General Buyuanit, protested the exhibition of the map to U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff General Peter Pace. Perhaps, the acronyms for the two states you noticed were an unfortunate inadvertent coincidence—the U.S. has made greater blunders in the past.
5. In 2007, a U.S. government report revealed that the U.S. military could not accound for 190,000, or 30%, of all weapons issued to Iraqi Security Froces between June 2004 and December 2005. Then, in the summer of 2007, the Turkish military confiscated U.S. weapons from PKK terrorists caught in Turkey. Relevant excerpts from one news report:
In the United States, officials in Washington said the smuggling investigation grew from internal Pentagon and State Department inquiries into U.S. weapons that had gone missing in Iraq. It gained steam after Turkish authorities protested to the U.S. in July that they had seized American arms from the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, rebels. The Turks provided serial numbers of the weapons to U.S. investigators, said a Turkish official.
The Pentagon said in late July [2007] it was looking into the Turkish complaints and a U.S. official said FBI agents had traveled to Turkey in recent months to look into cases of U.S. weapons that have gone missing in Iraq. It was not clear whether Blackwater employees suspected of selling to the black market knew the weapons they allegedly sold to middlemen might wind up with the PKK. If they did, possible charges against them could be more serious than theft or illegal weapons sales, officials said.
There was a more complete article published in the NY Times about this, which I’m sure you can find if you googld for it, but you can also read more about it here.
6. This is not about U.S. ill-will towards Turkey. Friendship and alliances between nation states is based upon beneficial mutual self-interests. The U.S. populace and economy is deeply dependent upon oil, and thus, the vast oil reserves in the middle east. There are over a billion people in China, who are only now beginning to discover the pleasure of owning and driving cars. Competition for the oil reserves in the middle east is going to increase on a hyperbolic scale during the next 10-15 years. The cost of gas in the U.S. has doubled in the past year. Imagine what will happen to the U.S. economy if that occurs every year, or even every two or three years.
As for Bush’s reasons for invading Iraq, they are ever-changing. First, he wanted to invade because Saddam participated in the 9/11 attack. Then, he was invading because Saddam had amassed weapons of mass destruction. Now, he invaded because he wanted to bring democracy to Iraq. While Bush is commander in chief and President of the U.S., he is not a dictator or a king. Decisions to invade another country are made in concert with others, for example, his cabinet. Wolfowitz was on record back in 1997 as urging an invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam from power in order to protect the oil fields and disruption of the flow of oil by Saddam.
The U.S. does use embargoes as trading cards, but with Iraq, it also used military force. Perhaps you may recall Bush’s publicized speeches leading to the invasion where he announced that if Saddam did not permit U.N. inspectors into Iraq, military force would be used, thus using the trading card of “no invasion” for “U.N. inspection.”
1) And what did Erdogan say about this Middle East Plan? Did he say "Yes, I loved this plan that was given to me, it’s about dividing Turkey. Thank you have a nice day."
At what point did Erdogan or any official say "There is a middle East Plan, Turkey is a part of it, it’s about OIL or dividing the Middle East and me and Bush love it!"
2) Point #1 and Point #2 do not relate. Neither the Neo-Cons nor the Republicans support Islamist or even hints at Islamofacism. In fact, if anything Erdogan and Bush are Arch-enemies, the forces of Islamism using democracy to gain power versus the powers of capitalism and Anti-terror using democracy to gain power.
3) So you are saying that the Ergenekon has nothing to do with Secularists and Islamists? You think Ergenekon is not about support of Ataturk and the current administration’s actions against Ataturk? Well then you obviously do not live in Turkey and you should stop discussing this subject.
You’re welcome to express your opinion but you just lost all your credibility, I apologize for being frank.
4) I do find the map funny because it is completely bullcrap. It’s obviously made by someone with a sense of humor. And of course the "free kurdistan" part is extremely stupid. However, it is obvious that such a map will never ever happen.
I would like a website, either of the TSK or whatever or some other verifiable source which states that the map was taken seriously by American military personnel.
If you can provide a source I’ll believe you and concede this point. If not you have lost credibility once again. If it is true, then yes, it’s very sad that even some idiot Americans have taken it very seriously and the Turkish Generals should be angry about it.
5) Thank you for proving my point. You just confessed that the United States did not arm the PKK, that it was indeed outlaws/blackwateridiots/weapons-smugglers who armed the PKK as I said in my post.
6) Are you an economist now? The economy cannot be harmed by simply small increases in price of gas. In Europe, and if you had lived in Turkey you would know that in Turkey the price of gas is about 8$ last time I checked. In the United States, gas prices have risen, true, but it will not make the economy as bad as some people think. The US is a 13 trillion dollar economy, it doesn’t easily get affected by small things like European nations.
If countries could easily invade nations for oil, then China and India would have invaded Iran by now. The United States invaded Saddam because of Bush’s beliefs in freedom, of course, some of you will say "how silly" well that’s Bush for you. That doesn’t mean that Bush did it for oil. I use to think it was for oil too, until I used my logic and found what the oil revenues were being used for (Rebuilding Iraq).
Perhaps the oil idea, was a minor factor. Then why would US troops withdraw from Northern Iraq? But like I said, people in the Bush administration who betrayed Bush did not even say it was for oil. Bush also believed that Iraq was a threat to the United States. It has been proven that intelligence reports at the time had said that Iraqi officials met with a country that sold Nuclear material.
So sure, arguments can be made about oil, doesn’t mean that its the only reason and it CERTAINLY does not mean America should withdraw from Iraq. It would be a human rights violation to withdraw from Iraq, and it would ruin Turkey as well because it would strengthen the Kurds to create Kurdistan. So If America withdraws trust me, it means that Turkey will be in war.
Jonathan,
Your comments are so wildly extreme, and so over emotional, that you go beyond the realm of reason. Who are you to say who can and cannot speak about this issue/subject? So get over yourself.
“if anything Erdogan and Bush are Arch-enemies”
Really, so why then, does the Bush administration support the AKP? The Bush administration believes the closure case against the AKP smacks of a lack of democracy and they are opposed to it. Please cite me anything that says Bush and Erdogan are “arch-enemies”.
“or some other verifiable source which states that the map was taken seriously by American military personnel”
As I wrote above, if you bothered to read it, the map was published in the Armed Forces Journal in 2006.
It is your opinion that the 80 who’ve been arrested for participation in Ergenekon have been selected solely for their love of Ataturk. That is nonsense. They are being harassed for the love their country, which embodies much more than the "love of Ataturk."
You call Erdogan and his crew Islamofacists, which, by the way, I disagree with; they are no Taliban. They are Islamists, they probably would be very happy to have Sharia law, but they are not facists. They have a political ideology I vehemently disagree with, however that does not make them facists. Calling your opponents names is a weak debate tactic.
However, for the sake of argument, let’s say they are as extreme as you think they are. You don’t think that an "Islamofacist", who believes they can lie, cheat, steal or kill in the name of their bizarre brand of religion would give up, say a quarter of Anatolia for absolute unbridled power over the rest of the country?
The eastern quarter of Anatolia is less developed, less educated, more hostile territory than the rest of the country. It has been so wrought with terrorist activity that industry won’t invest there, what investment is made is often destroyed by terrorists. Perhaps Erdogan views the eastern portion of the country as a drain on the economy without any consequent benefit. Who knows what kind of calculus an "Islamofacist" will engage in? Do you?
And, JONATHAN, who are you to presume how long I’ve lived in Turkey? Take your ad hominem attacks elsewhere. It’s clear that I read more Turkish newspapers and watch more Turkish television than you do since you are unaware that Erdogan considers Turkey a partner in the Greater Middle East Initiave, whose existence you weren’t even aware of until now.
Just to clarify, since you don’t seem to get it. If you bother to read it carefully, the original article doesn’t suggest the U.S. is behind Ergenekon.
"Then why would US troops withdraw from Northern Iraq?"
Because the vast majority of the American public doesn’t support it and thinks its been a failure, because every penny spent by the U.S. on the invasion has been borrowed from China, because the sons and daughters of Americans are being killed and maimed, because the Iraqis don’t want the U.S. there any more, because the invasion has destroyed Iraqi infrastructure, caused the death of hundreds of thousands (some say a million) of Iraqis, because of Abu Graib, etc. etc.
As for the weapons in PKK hands, they are U.S. supplied. The U.S. brought them into Iraq and lost track of 30% of what they brought in. Do you really think the U.S. military is that incompetent?
As I said before, you are free to express your opinion, but if you want me to respond to it, do it in a mature and civilized fashion.
Okay, I’ll try to be brief here, the point that I agree with Jonathan here is the fact that Ergenekon is an internal problem purely made up by AKP in its desire to hold onto absolute power in Turkey. However both the US and Europe could become unwitting conspirators by siding with AKP in this case.
BUT, the Greater Middle East Initiative exists and it’s a fact. There are easily accessible files declaring and studying the feasibility of this initiative. In fact, I knew that the map was coming from some serious source the moment I saw it - This map has been a subject of very heated discussions within Turkey. In fact, I thought this was some CIA exercise/strategy map until Kemal specified the exact source, which is correct and can be verified.
HOWEVER, linking Ergenekon to the Greater Middle East Initiative is tenuous in my opinion - it makes sense only insofar as America and/or Europe wants to keep on supporting the AKP. AND we all know how quickly both America and Europe will change sides depending on what fits within their framework of self-interests. Thus supporting Ergenekon, like everything else, will require a cost-benefit analysis. Is AKP truely a moderate party as it claims, a party who can act as a "big brother" within the Middle East, and hence allow for greater control of the Middle East by "Western" powers?
Although Erdogan has acted in conformity with certain requirements of the Greater Middle East Initiative except for the Iraq war, (and that’s a HUGE exception), there is evidence that AKP is NOT a moderate party and even some in the U.S. are starting to see it the way Secular Kemalists see it in Turkey.
So while Kemal’s narrative becomes a big bad conspiracy theory, albeit with some truth in it, let’s not forget that Ergenekon itself has become a big huge absurd structure that’s more mythical than any conspiracy "theories" purported above. Also it is important to analyse these theories precisely because a lot of things do seem to make sense that way, although there’s a big risk of "overinterpreting" things. Most of the time we may fit evidence that may be a random coincidence into a bigger picture to come up with a logical but incorrect narrative. In fact, that’s what Ergenekon is all about.
It was a mature and civilized manner, you assume it isn’t because you did not like the criticism. I assumed how long you lived in Turkey based on your comments, it wasn’t an ad hominem attack it was a possibility of how you could form such an opinion.
You assume too much of the Bush administration, they have made tons of mistakes, what did you really think that they are run by the best of the best or the most intelligent? If that were true do you think they could have handled Iraq so badly? Do you think if they were that intelligent that they would have let the Kurds loot the Iraqi city.
If you assume the Bush administration is an intelligent mastermind organization of "evil" as you imply, then what mastermind decided that the Iraqi army should be disbanded? Which led to a larger insurgency than expected?
You are giving them too much credit. You’re a smart person, who believes that some people are as smart as you, they may not be so. You study events, you research issues, these people research them and their message barely gets up to the ears of the president. Messages get lost.
If you think they were arrested for the love of their country you’re insane. They were arrested because the AKP is dumb enough to think that they can screw up the Secular organizations through arrests and computer-file evidence. Don’t assume the AKP is an intelligent mastermind organization either, they are simply simpletons a bunch of Arabs who think they know whats best for Turkey while at the same time selling everything and prostituting themselves to European nations.
The Ergenekon is PURELY internal Turkish politics. The reason it took international dimension is because the Islamists (AKP) quickly told their contacts in foreign countries to begin sending reports to News agencies. That is why so many wrote about it, because they were fed false information from the Islamists who initiated the Ergenekon operation.
The men arrested were strong supporters of Ataturk, it was meant to scare people from supporting Ataturk, it’s a "show of strength", and diversion. Diverting attention from the trials of the AKP-ban and to convince judges there that there are scary people who want to coup d’etat and overthrow the government. So far it is not working to their advantage as they hoped.
They are worse than the Taliban, because they are Islamofascists in disguise of a Liberal Democratic party. That makes them 10x worse than the Taliban. They are Islamofascists which was definitely proven and verified after the Ergenekon operation.
In modern nations, people do not get arrested for computer files or word documents, unless they are pornography or stolen files from governments. If you watched any Turkish news at all, you would realize that the Ergenekon is one of the biggest examples of fascism in the world. And it is obvious that Islamofascists named the AKP have initiated it. Even hinting that you want Shari’a Law is 100% solid proof that you are an Islamofascist. It’s not an ad hominem attack at all to them Islamofascism isn’t a bad thing it’s a good thing so why would it be an ad hominem attack, they only hid it until now because it was unpopular, but that may change, it gained popularity in the Iranian revolution in Iran.
Who says they gave it up or want to give it up? Both the Taliban and the AKP lies, cheats, steals, and maybe has killed in the name of their ideology, they killed Kuddusi Okkir, so you’re only proving my point that they are both Islamofascists.
The Greater Middle East Initiative, is nothing but the name of Bush’s plan to bring democracy and modernization to the Middle East. It has nothing to do with Turkey.
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2004/0510middleeast_wittes.aspx
What it has to do with Turkey indirectly, is simply modernization and its role to encourage the Arab world to modernize and accept Westernization.
It has NOTHING to do with territorial integrity of nations. The map you showed is nothing but a joke. Some people maybe even Americans may have taken it seriously, and that’s their stupidity. I don’t blame the Turkish generals for believing it, if any military personnel showed it around. The reality is, it simply will not happen.
It’s a conspiracy theory. There may even be idiots that actually want it, PKK sympathizers, some Arabs, other idiots. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t a conspiracy theory, it means that they are dumb enough to believe in it.
Here read this about the Middle East Initiative, and educate yourself because you obviously believe it is some vast conspiracy to redraw the Middle East, I support the Middle East Initiative and I also support Turkey and it’s integrity and sovreignty:
What in the world are you talking about:
Wrong again, approximately 55% of the American public does not support the Iraq war. However, my question was Northern Iraq, not Iraq as a whole.
Borrowing from other countries can occur, especially when the government has to spend money. McCain wants to change that.
Yes, and how many American families whose sons and daughters are soldiers have you talked to? Let me rephrase it to fit your Turkish perspective…
Let’s say one day as the generals are fighting the PKK in Eastern Anatolia and Northern Iraq, some new prime minister comes up and says to the Turkish public:
Maybe you’d be happy apparently of this sort of decision, would you? I await your answer.
Wars are costly, sometimes they achieve the inevitable loss of life for both sides. That doesn’t mean all wars are wrong. To the Americans the Iraq war is right, because we are not fighting Iraqis we are fighting Al Qaeda and other Islamofascists.
I have another question for you… Do you support Al Qaeda? No? If you don’t then why aren’t you supporting the US invasion in Iraq? How bout that "Turkish" "El Kayda", do you support that? No? Then why don’t you support the Middle Eastern Initiative which is basically another name for the war on terror but through Politics, Economics, and Education?
I hope you won’t ignore my questions because they lead to good discussions, but it’s important when discussing conspiracy theories not to be a hypocrite. I haven’t insulted your intelligence, I have only complimented it, and I have simply pointed out the discrepancies in your article, which seems to be based more on rumor/news articles than facts.
Jonathan, apparently by asking the below question to Kemal you are thinking that dictators in Middle East are the same threat to US’ territory and sovereignty in its own land as PKK is to Turkey. If that is the case, I believe both of you won’t go anywhere with this discussion.
/”Let’s say one day as the generals are fighting the PKK in Eastern Anatolia and Northern Iraq, some new prime minister comes up and says to the Turkish public:
“Let’s withdraw from Northern Iraq and Eastern Anatolia! Our sons and daughters are being maimed by the PKK and so we should pull out of that region! Our economy is being harmed because of this wasteful war against the PKK. Let’s bring our Mehmetciks (Turkish soldiers) home!
Maybe you’d be happy apparently of this sort of decision, would you? I await your answer.”/
Selin and Jonathan, I hear what you are saying about Ergenekon but ALTHOUGH NOT ORGANİZED as AKP claims it to be, there is an Ergenekon in Turkey and not in this name, not that I am not defending their cause by the way. Turkey, although being ruled quite democratically compared to some countries, is away from a full democratic ruling in other senses, because a full democracy in Turkey will take Turkey to an Iranian type of regime and you know what, compared to AK Party’s dictatorship, I choose the other dictatorship that could prevent this all along.
Elif, if the military truly wanted to overthrow the Turkish government, they have the capacity to do it overnight. In one night. That’s what I mean, one night.
Thus a "deep" mythical structure AND incompetent organization such as Ergenekon is quite unnecessary and doesn’t make any sense.
And no I’m not exaggerating when I say one night.
Yes Selin, that is what it all comes down to, soft intervention or hard intervention. The hard intervention you are referring to can easily be done but at what cost?
That is why some retired officers are answering some reporters questions as maybe there is a plan for a military intervention and maybe there is not one and avoiding to answer a very direct question.
I agree, I do not believe that the situation is as severe as AK Party is trying to show and it is not definitely an organized crime and I do not believe that this is a western initiative as such and therefore I think as I posted some time ago elsewhere that AK party with this excuse on hand is trying to change Turkey’s real agenda here but still there is something going on in the background. I repeat I’d rather be dictated by such a group than AK Party though.
I don’t have time to post a complete response right now, but will post a few clarifications.
I agree that Ergenekon is most likely an internally developed matter, but is being driven by concerns the AKP has as a result of outside sources–note “as a result of” and not “outside sources are raising them” (there’s a huge difference).
Foreign displomacy, to some extent, is like a game of chess between two nations. It involves strategic planning, forward thinking and planned fall-back positions for different possible scenarios. If a third party, from one of the players comes along and starts interfering with the chess pieces, pushing pieces of either player off the board, it can frustrate the goals and disrupt the strategy of the player the third parties’ come from.
All of the goals of the Greater MIddle East Initiative are not known. However, for example, they seem to include Turkey’s membership in the EU and U.S. involvement in Iran (although this seems to be changing due to recent events).
The hypothesis is that one of the players in this game of chess is the AKP, and the third parties that they believe to be seriously disrupting their game are the military, liberal journalists and party leaders like Dogu Perincek.
Why? Because the EU is opposed to the way the military exercises influence over political processes and believes their influence should be diminished. There is tension between the U.S. and the Turkish military over handling the PKK, the Iraq Kurdish region and intervention in Iran. Liberal journalists write against the AKP and stir up trouble for them among the people, and some of them may be for a totally independent Turkey (i.e., they are opposed to EU accession). Among other things, Dogu Perincek has totally and completely interfered with the AKP’s handling of the Armenian question, which is something used by the EU and the US as a bargaining chip between them and Turkey all the time (this doesn’t mean the AKP doesn’t want to eliminate this chip altogether, but it probably wants to eliminate it or use it in its own way–perhaps in negotiations with Armenia).
Does that mean that the U.S. told the AKP to dream up "Ergenekon"? No.
However, these "third parties" are interfering with the AKP’s "game". Whatever anyone may think of the AKP’s politics, Erdogan is no dummy. He’s a graduate from a religious school, which provides a second rate education and started his professional life selling tickets for something (buses, trains or whatever, I don’t remember right now) and rose to become the PM of the country.
That means that he is smart, crafty, and probably extremely street smart. People who’ve met him in person, that also detest his politics, reluctantly admit that he is extremely charismatic and knows how to charm and engage people in a way that is disarming. He also, from his kasim pasa style, seems to be someone who likes to be in control.
The suggestion is that Ergenekon is something dreamed up to gather the 80 disparate people that have been collected, who have such differing political ideologies, to keep them from interfering in Erdogan’s foreign policy strategy. The people collected do have in common the fact that they criticized the AKP. However, there is a potentially much larger commonality among them, which involves criticizing the AKP, and that is that they are opposed to the changes occurring in Turkey due to the foreign policy course Erdgoan has taken (many, if not most, of which relate to goals of the Greater Middle East Initiative), that happens to be liberalizing rights which are benefiting Islamists and allowing them to push religion more freely into the public sphere, among other things.
This is what seems to be motivating the AKP’s choice in detainees. And, because that’s what is more likely motivating the choice of detainees, that is why the "coup plot" explanation doesn’t make sense to anyone (and seems to border on the ridiculous), why it doesn’t make sense that these 80 people with such different backgrounds and political leanings would ever find a reason strong enough to unite them to form a vast criminal enterprise, etc.
Elif, you are misunderstanding what I’m trying to say. My point is that if the military INTENDED for a takeover of the government, they would have done it by now.
So that’s precisely why Ergenekon is a bunch of retarded bullshit. Turkish military does NOT need a mythical structure like this. They are a lot more competent and goal-oriented than the Ergenekon stuff. THAT’s the strategic point I’m trying to make here.
So if you’re a detective and you see a sloppy murder you would know that this is NOT a pro’s job, bad analogy but that’s what it comes down to.
Besides, they’ve linked a Christian pastor’s murder by a Fundamentalist youth to Ergenekon as well. That’s the opposite of what the "Ergenekon" crowd against Fundamentalist Islam would do. They just moved many solved and unsolved murder / assasination cases including Hrant Dink’s and came up with the ridiculous indictment. It does not make any sense.
Yes I agree with you Selin, these guys, writers, retired army officers etc. are not organized at all and they can not be associated with any crime, that is nonsense, I agree with you there all along. It can not date back 600 hundred years, that is for sure as well.
What they do though, which AK Party is against all along, influence each other and their environment through either a self fullfulling prophecy sometimes but most of the time not through fiction but facts. They clearly understand where Turkey is going and they are not just waiting to see what is going to happen next. They are trying to do something in their own rights and they are not even hiding this. But of course AK Party, as was always been the case with contradicting voices, is trying to silence the dissenting views. The way how AK Party is chosen to this counry may be in a democratic fashion but how they are ruling is sometimes not that democratic unfortunately (ie. what happened to Kanal Turk).
The role of army in all this is either soft intervention or hard intervention part. To me until they see a very justifiable reason to intervene in a hard fashion, they won’t, but can we say that a group of AK Party opponents being arrested without hard cold facts not affecting army’s views at all about where Turkey is going, especially in a time when we are talking about a possible abolishment of AK Party? The answer to this question for me is no.
I’m telling you there is no such thing as an Ergenekon group, it might just be a rumor based on nothing but the imagination of the people. Perhaps someone thought of it, told others as if it could be serious, but that doesn’t mean it exists.
Even if Ergenekon did exist, if there is no solid evidence linking them to any crime, then they are nothing but a fraternity.
The reason the AKP chose those 80 people has NOTHING to do with foreign policy, the United States has no ill-thoughts towards people like Dogu Perincek, if it had any relation to his thoughts on the Armenian Genocide, there are plenty of more dangerous people that America would arrest.
Kemal, you are acting like as if there are "deep states" everywhere and "Majestic 12"s (The American version of the Turkish "deep state") everywhere. These are simply conspiracy theories. Fairy tales. You can consider the possibility of them, but to claim they are true is going TOO FAR.
Why do I say all this Kemal? Because I live in the United States, the government cannot even shut the most annoying liberal journalists, how do you expect the United States to interfere with the lives of individuals half-way across the world? They can barely find some of those AQ terrorists. They found a number of them, but not as many as they wanted. Not to mention the United States is spending all its intelligence and personnel to find dangerous Islamist terrorist leaders.
It would be completely absurd for them to consider what politicians, journalists, lawyers and others they should arrest or hurt. It would be absolutely insane for them to spend any money on the very inner politics of so many nations. Turkey is simply one country, it isn’t the center of attention.
Kemal, how can you imagine a group of Americans gathering around drawing up plans and writing documents about how they should "handle" Turkey, because that is what you are suggesting. Turks have become so sensitive to conspiracy theories and have become so gullable nowadays, they think that all sorts of agents and spies and foreign powers are interefering with Turkish politics, when the Turks only need to look right in front of their noses because it is quite obvious when you watch Turkish News that the AKP is behind many of these "disturbances" in Turkey. If it isn’t the AKP it’s the far left, if it isn’t them, then it’s the far right.
Look closer to home and you will find who’s meddling with Turkish politics.
You act like as if Bush’s staff has time to consider how they can affect the politics of every country. There is just not enough money or employees in the government to consider how they can interfere and meddle with other country’s politics. In fact, they can barely deal with problems of the 2008 elections and how to solve the problem in Iraq.
They are so busy with their own internal politics, that some idiot advisor comes up to Bush and tells him "maybe you should say something about this whole AKP closing thing thats going on in Turkey. Maybe you should tell them that democracy is great and how closing a political party is not democratic, that might improve your approval rating sir." And Bush goes "well alright then, just write it up for me, and make sure it isn’t something that will piss off the Turks!"
That’s probably exactly how his statement on the AKP came about.
As Einstein always says, you need to think more simpler, that everything is a lot more simple. Through this methodology, he was able to find out the many simple theories of how the universe works. He rejected other scientists theories about complexities in the universe. Conspiracy theories make you think so deep and complex that you loose track of who is really causing the problems (usually the simplest answer, the local parties who hate your guts).
Sometimes Turks want to look and point at problems outside Turkey, because they cannot deal with the problems inside Turkey. You have people making comments on Turkish forums saying "damn I lost my job… It must have been Bush’s fault", you should stand up and say "what does Bush have to do with the fact that Erdogan doesn’t have any intelligent economy people to manage the Turkish economy?"
Think simple, stop trying to find enemies outside Turkey, when the most dangerous and damaging enemies are within.
The Great Middle Eastern Initiative is simply Bush’s policy on Freedom and Democracy for the Middle East to solve the War on Terror (but it’s the "softer" side of the war on terror, the politics, the culture, the economies). If you think Bush is imagining how he can change Turkey to fit his will, you are overestimating Bush’s intelligence.
Jonathan, why don’t you first read what I write before you purport to respond to it?
You start out emphatically insisting there’s no Ergenekon. Who are you arguing with here? because it’s certainly not me. Then you go on to argue the U.S. has no ill-will towards Turkey? I already said that, above. The U.S. is only pursuing its own interests in the region.
Your assertion that no one in the U.S. state department plans out foreign policy is beyond bizarre, it’s downright ridiculous. Have you ever even visited the U.S. State Dept or the Pentagon? Do you know how many people they employ there?
Your analogy above comparing the PKK and the sacrifice made by Turkish soldiers to the sacrifice being made by U.S. soldiers in Iraq is entirely inappropriate. Turkish soldiers are defending the territorial integrity of their homeland, the lives of their fellow citizens. U.S. soldiers in Iraq are doing no such thing; they are only pursuing U.S. interests in Iraq (i.e., free flow of oil).
Jonathan, you must be quite young, because it is clear that you have a lot to learn about the way the world works. And, by the way, recent news from Ankara bears out some of the connections I made above, so you should try reading them again, but this time, try to comprehend and understand what I’ve written instead of injecting what you think I’ve written into my comments.
One more thing, basing all of your analysis on the assertion that everyone (Erdogan, Bush et al.) are stupid,is not the least bit convincing and just comes across as arrogant.