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	<title>Comments on: Westernization vs Modernization</title>
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	<description>News and Analysis from Different Moderate Perspectives</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61944</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61944</guid>
		<description>Just because certain American politicians followed certain policies doesn't mean that all American politicians feel the same way. Those observations of both Turks and Americans are false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because certain American politicians followed certain policies doesn&#8217;t mean that all American politicians feel the same way. Those observations of both Turks and Americans are false.</p>
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		<title>By: Elif</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61937</link>
		<dc:creator>Elif</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61937</guid>
		<description>Jonathan, prejudices are always there and obviously not right, but those prejudices are also formed by past observations. When you look at a record of country with wars all along its history, then eventually you start to think that this country is having a secret agenda or something and it is not just for US I am talking about here. The hate against Turks in some part of the world stems from Ottoman Empire's  back then mismanagements and spread policy. Even if the intentions today may be good, it is hard to make people believe in that and it is not only because people are paranoid or so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, prejudices are always there and obviously not right, but those prejudices are also formed by past observations. When you look at a record of country with wars all along its history, then eventually you start to think that this country is having a secret agenda or something and it is not just for US I am talking about here. The hate against Turks in some part of the world stems from Ottoman Empire&#8217;s  back then mismanagements and spread policy. Even if the intentions today may be good, it is hard to make people believe in that and it is not only because people are paranoid or so.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61862</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61862</guid>
		<description>The Muslim world will see it negatively regardless of what you do. If genocide was taking place in Saudi Arabia and you invade to stop it, there will be people who view it as a quest for oil or a quest to take over holy lands. 

You know that Americans like conspiracy theories but in the Middle East conspiracy theories have often come true and hence conspiracies are so elaborate and absurd in the Middle East. 

I once had a chat with a taxi driver in the Middle East once, he said that the problems with the government was that the leaders were &#34;funded by the Jewish lobby!&#34;

Often Middle Easterners will blame specifically the wrong people for the problems that are obviously the fault of certain people. 

The difference is, the conspiracy theories are so widespread that they enable organizations to recruit much easier through the use of propaganda, lies, and conspiracies (such as AQ).

In this world, there's always a system, and there will always be people who fall through the cracks, those people who fall through cracks are then used as the proof of conspiracies. In the Middle East, too many fall through the cracks because of terrible leadership of terrible leaders, as a result conspiracies are more common and sometimes they target the people at the top of the food chain (America). 

One thing Democrats and Republicans do not realize is, America was already hated way before 2001. That these hatreds have existed for centuries. With America it is a hate-love relationship. Everyone uses American technologies, watches American movies, and uses things from the American culture or industries. However, those same people also blame America for their problems because it is a super-power. Kind of like blaming the CEO of a company for the problems on the workforce level (even though the CEO may not have been the cause). 

Another analogy would be blaming microsoft for the world's computer problems. 

The only reason Americans feel the hatred has increased since 2000s, is because they have been paying attention more to the outside world. America tends to become isolated in itself, because we're busy messing with our own politics and problems, meanwhile Europe and the rest of the world has been dealing with the same problems forever. Of course now that on 9/11 those problems outside the US have reached the US, Americans have begun to wake up. 

Imagine a child who closes his eyes thinking that if he cannot see you then you cannot see him, the fact is the problems are there, now the child has opened his eyes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Muslim world will see it negatively regardless of what you do. If genocide was taking place in Saudi Arabia and you invade to stop it, there will be people who view it as a quest for oil or a quest to take over holy lands. </p>
<p>You know that Americans like conspiracy theories but in the Middle East conspiracy theories have often come true and hence conspiracies are so elaborate and absurd in the Middle East. </p>
<p>I once had a chat with a taxi driver in the Middle East once, he said that the problems with the government was that the leaders were &quot;funded by the Jewish lobby!&quot;</p>
<p>Often Middle Easterners will blame specifically the wrong people for the problems that are obviously the fault of certain people. </p>
<p>The difference is, the conspiracy theories are so widespread that they enable organizations to recruit much easier through the use of propaganda, lies, and conspiracies (such as AQ).</p>
<p>In this world, there&#8217;s always a system, and there will always be people who fall through the cracks, those people who fall through cracks are then used as the proof of conspiracies. In the Middle East, too many fall through the cracks because of terrible leadership of terrible leaders, as a result conspiracies are more common and sometimes they target the people at the top of the food chain (America). </p>
<p>One thing Democrats and Republicans do not realize is, America was already hated way before 2001. That these hatreds have existed for centuries. With America it is a hate-love relationship. Everyone uses American technologies, watches American movies, and uses things from the American culture or industries. However, those same people also blame America for their problems because it is a super-power. Kind of like blaming the CEO of a company for the problems on the workforce level (even though the CEO may not have been the cause). </p>
<p>Another analogy would be blaming microsoft for the world&#8217;s computer problems. </p>
<p>The only reason Americans feel the hatred has increased since 2000s, is because they have been paying attention more to the outside world. America tends to become isolated in itself, because we&#8217;re busy messing with our own politics and problems, meanwhile Europe and the rest of the world has been dealing with the same problems forever. Of course now that on 9/11 those problems outside the US have reached the US, Americans have begun to wake up. </p>
<p>Imagine a child who closes his eyes thinking that if he cannot see you then you cannot see him, the fact is the problems are there, now the child has opened his eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61844</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61844</guid>
		<description>Jonathan;
A good discussion. One question:  Why must we have such an Amero-centric view of the Muslim world?  Certainly as it pertains to US foreign policy we must consider American interests and therefore at least partially take on an Amero-centric view.  That however, ignores not only different perspectives but also the reality that the US is held in very low esteem throughout the Muslim world.  Therefore, any Amero-centric action will start out at a disadvantage since the very people it will &#34;benefit&#34; (the Muslim world) see it negatively (as an American intervention)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan;<br />
A good discussion. One question:  Why must we have such an Amero-centric view of the Muslim world?  Certainly as it pertains to US foreign policy we must consider American interests and therefore at least partially take on an Amero-centric view.  That however, ignores not only different perspectives but also the reality that the US is held in very low esteem throughout the Muslim world.  Therefore, any Amero-centric action will start out at a disadvantage since the very people it will &quot;benefit&quot; (the Muslim world) see it negatively (as an American intervention)</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61824</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61824</guid>
		<description>Of course, there usually needs to be compelling motive for the US to enter nations. Compelling reasons include 1) Countries that immediately threaten us 2) Countries that threaten US citizens 3) Countries that may hurt our economy severely.

We will never know the real reasons for such actions. However, I would hope eventually we can influence all the nations and perhaps forcefully rebuild nations like Iran, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Armenia, Syria, Yemen, and Omen to the standards of democracy and educational standards that match Europe. It would seriously weaken terrorism.

At first nations may hate the US but eventually they'll see that the US is the only imperialist nation that actually had a positive effect on the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, there usually needs to be compelling motive for the US to enter nations. Compelling reasons include 1) Countries that immediately threaten us 2) Countries that threaten US citizens 3) Countries that may hurt our economy severely.</p>
<p>We will never know the real reasons for such actions. However, I would hope eventually we can influence all the nations and perhaps forcefully rebuild nations like Iran, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Armenia, Syria, Yemen, and Omen to the standards of democracy and educational standards that match Europe. It would seriously weaken terrorism.</p>
<p>At first nations may hate the US but eventually they&#8217;ll see that the US is the only imperialist nation that actually had a positive effect on the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Elif</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61805</link>
		<dc:creator>Elif</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61805</guid>
		<description>Jonathan, I understand your points and I am with you all along as a Muslim and a Turk (I could not agree with you more on the part about Hz. Muhammed) , but what you are not putting here is US is always late in interfering in non-oil regions than oil regions (ie. Bosnia) to spread democracy and the guns are provided to these dictators and terrorist radical groups by west in the first place. 
Therefore US' world policy, as a foreigner when I look at it, seems to be more focused on being number in the world  then spreading democracy, if my humble opinion is important for you is another story of course. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, I understand your points and I am with you all along as a Muslim and a Turk (I could not agree with you more on the part about Hz. Muhammed) , but what you are not putting here is US is always late in interfering in non-oil regions than oil regions (ie. Bosnia) to spread democracy and the guns are provided to these dictators and terrorist radical groups by west in the first place.<br />
Therefore US&#8217; world policy, as a foreigner when I look at it, seems to be more focused on being number in the world  then spreading democracy, if my humble opinion is important for you is another story of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61653</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 01:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61653</guid>
		<description>hass, the president of Iran is a dictator, just because like Saddam the guy calls himself a &#34;president&#34; doesn't make him a president. Hence, both Saddam and Ahmadinejad are dictators. You're welcome to talk to Iranians who don't live in Iran, they'll tell you how angry they are with Obama for even hinting at talking with Ahmadinejad and possibly legitimizing is illegal regime. 

Sure the Iranian Revolution is what brought the Iranian regime power, but that doesn't mean that it is a righteous revolution. People have created revolutions like the American revolution, but in the end they established a democracy and did not suppress the rights of the minority.

Connor, the Islamic states are not the problem, it is the fundamentalist ideologies that have captured such governments that become a problem. Fundamentalist people do not think like everyone else, sure they know about how great and powerful the West is, but they believe that it is their divine right to be more powerful. They believe that the reason why Iran or other &#34;Islamic Republics&#34; are not a world-power is because they have somewhat strayed away from Mohammad's way-of-life. 

In other words, these Islamic dictators and fundamentalists, have created an image of Mohammad in their eyes, which they believe will eventually lead them to victory. They believe they can overcome their enemy not with education and technology but with belief and determination. &lt;strong&gt;The reality is they have strayed farther away from Mohammad than ever and have become a cult of their own called fundamentalism. &lt;/strong&gt;

For example, Mohammad did not want himself ever to be worshiped he stressed the fact that only God may be worshiped. Yet these fundamentalists are worshiping Mohammad by trying to mimic his lifestyle (or what they think his lifestyle was).

In essence, these fundamentalists are hijacking Islam to control the masses through fear and oppression. They have created their own rules in which they teach their own people through religious education, but in reality they are teaching what they believe will enable them to better control the people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hass, the president of Iran is a dictator, just because like Saddam the guy calls himself a &quot;president&quot; doesn&#8217;t make him a president. Hence, both Saddam and Ahmadinejad are dictators. You&#8217;re welcome to talk to Iranians who don&#8217;t live in Iran, they&#8217;ll tell you how angry they are with Obama for even hinting at talking with Ahmadinejad and possibly legitimizing is illegal regime. </p>
<p>Sure the Iranian Revolution is what brought the Iranian regime power, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that it is a righteous revolution. People have created revolutions like the American revolution, but in the end they established a democracy and did not suppress the rights of the minority.</p>
<p>Connor, the Islamic states are not the problem, it is the fundamentalist ideologies that have captured such governments that become a problem. Fundamentalist people do not think like everyone else, sure they know about how great and powerful the West is, but they believe that it is their divine right to be more powerful. They believe that the reason why Iran or other &quot;Islamic Republics&quot; are not a world-power is because they have somewhat strayed away from Mohammad&#8217;s way-of-life. </p>
<p>In other words, these Islamic dictators and fundamentalists, have created an image of Mohammad in their eyes, which they believe will eventually lead them to victory. They believe they can overcome their enemy not with education and technology but with belief and determination. <strong>The reality is they have strayed farther away from Mohammad than ever and have become a cult of their own called fundamentalism. </strong></p>
<p>For example, Mohammad did not want himself ever to be worshiped he stressed the fact that only God may be worshiped. Yet these fundamentalists are worshiping Mohammad by trying to mimic his lifestyle (or what they think his lifestyle was).</p>
<p>In essence, these fundamentalists are hijacking Islam to control the masses through fear and oppression. They have created their own rules in which they teach their own people through religious education, but in reality they are teaching what they believe will enable them to better control the people.</p>
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		<title>By: Connor</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61591</link>
		<dc:creator>Connor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61591</guid>
		<description>Is it really &#34;overconfidence&#34; that is a problem in Islamic states?

I've often wondered if there is something in Islam itself that's led to this situation in the Middle East.  While I admire Islam for its strong moral vision (something that seems to be lacking in today's Christianity) I wonder if they emphasis on military conquest of unbelievers creates instability and a tendency to turn to violence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it really &quot;overconfidence&quot; that is a problem in Islamic states?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve often wondered if there is something in Islam itself that&#8217;s led to this situation in the Middle East.  While I admire Islam for its strong moral vision (something that seems to be lacking in today&#8217;s Christianity) I wonder if they emphasis on military conquest of unbelievers creates instability and a tendency to turn to violence.</p>
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		<title>By: A. A. B.</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61578</link>
		<dc:creator>A. A. B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61578</guid>
		<description>What went wrong in the Middle East? Many things, but imho the most important problem is that things cannot be openly discussed there.


hass,
Look at how the president of Iran is &#34;elected&#34;. A non-elected religious body preselects candidates that fit their ideas. This means that the people of Iran don't have any free choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What went wrong in the Middle East? Many things, but imho the most important problem is that things cannot be openly discussed there.</p>
<p>hass,<br />
Look at how the president of Iran is &quot;elected&quot;. A non-elected religious body preselects candidates that fit their ideas. This means that the people of Iran don&#8217;t have any free choice.</p>
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		<title>By: hass</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61537</link>
		<dc:creator>hass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/07/15/what-went-wrong-westernization-vs-modernization/#comment-61537</guid>
		<description>The President of Iran is not a &#34;dictator&#34;  The dictator was the fellow that our governments imposed on Iran until the people overthrew him. The other dictator was Saddam, whom we armed and supported in his war against Iran. We're in bed with a few more dictators. In fact, most of the world's dictators happen to be close US and UK allies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The President of Iran is not a &quot;dictator&quot;  The dictator was the fellow that our governments imposed on Iran until the people overthrew him. The other dictator was Saddam, whom we armed and supported in his war against Iran. We&#8217;re in bed with a few more dictators. In fact, most of the world&#8217;s dictators happen to be close US and UK allies.</p>
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