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	<title>Comments on: Gay Marriage OK in California</title>
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	<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/</link>
	<description>News and Analysis from Different Moderate Perspectives</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 06:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: A. A. B.</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50840</link>
		<dc:creator>A. A. B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 07:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50840</guid>
		<description>Why should marriage (before the state) only be between a man and a woman? 
If men and women are equal, then a women should be allowed to marry a woman, just like a man is allowed to marry a woman, and a man should be allowed to marry a man just like a woman is allowed to marry a man.
The claim that marriage should be between one man and one woman is a religious one, and if church and state are seperate, it should be left to the individual whether he wants to follow it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why should marriage (before the state) only be between a man and a woman?<br />
If men and women are equal, then a women should be allowed to marry a woman, just like a man is allowed to marry a woman, and a man should be allowed to marry a man just like a woman is allowed to marry a man.<br />
The claim that marriage should be between one man and one woman is a religious one, and if church and state are seperate, it should be left to the individual whether he wants to follow it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50780</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 21:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50780</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;First and most importantly, legislation would be separate, which means that though you could legislate it as equal the first day, every additional right granted to marriage would end up being fought for in the case of civil unions, since the fate of gay and heterosexual relationships in the law wouldn’t be bound.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It seems a simple matter to establish either by judicial decision or my statute that &#34;marriage&#34; and &#34;civil unions&#34; shall be interpreted as synonyms in all past and future statutes.   I seriously doubt they go back into all past statutes to edit them, they simply interpret them in light of the new principle.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The answer is simple, straights don’t want that. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The implication that all people of a given orientation (i.e. &#34;straights&#34;) all want one thing on the issue of gay rights is a slander.  There are, in point of fact, many &#34;straights&#34; who believe in and work for equal treatment for homosexuals.

When referring to people who oppose gay rights, you should refer to them that way, as &#34;people who oppose gay rights&#34; or &#34;anti-gay rights&#34; or by a term specific to the issue, &#34;anti-gay marriage&#34;.  You might notice that I have never said "the gays" want anything.  I have instead referred to "gay rights proponents" or "pro-gay rights" or something similar. 

Anyway, you missed my point.  My point was not to endorse the push back on the word &#34;marriage&#34;, it was to point out that obsessing on that term instead of the &#34;civil unions&#34; sop was bad strategy because it set the overall cause back years and, in some areas, decades.  I think if they had stuck to the core issue -- equality -- and resisted the urge to demand the purely emotional victory of "marriage", we would already have legally equal civil unions in the majority of states instead of just in 3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>First and most importantly, legislation would be separate, which means that though you could legislate it as equal the first day, every additional right granted to marriage would end up being fought for in the case of civil unions, since the fate of gay and heterosexual relationships in the law wouldn’t be bound.
</p></blockquote>
<p>It seems a simple matter to establish either by judicial decision or my statute that &quot;marriage&quot; and &quot;civil unions&quot; shall be interpreted as synonyms in all past and future statutes.   I seriously doubt they go back into all past statutes to edit them, they simply interpret them in light of the new principle.</p>
<blockquote><p>The answer is simple, straights don’t want that.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The implication that all people of a given orientation (i.e. &quot;straights&quot;) all want one thing on the issue of gay rights is a slander.  There are, in point of fact, many &quot;straights&quot; who believe in and work for equal treatment for homosexuals.</p>
<p>When referring to people who oppose gay rights, you should refer to them that way, as &quot;people who oppose gay rights&quot; or &quot;anti-gay rights&quot; or by a term specific to the issue, &quot;anti-gay marriage&quot;.  You might notice that I have never said &#8220;the gays&#8221; want anything.  I have instead referred to &#8220;gay rights proponents&#8221; or &#8220;pro-gay rights&#8221; or something similar. </p>
<p>Anyway, you missed my point.  My point was not to endorse the push back on the word &quot;marriage&quot;, it was to point out that obsessing on that term instead of the &quot;civil unions&quot; sop was bad strategy because it set the overall cause back years and, in some areas, decades.  I think if they had stuck to the core issue &#8212; equality &#8212; and resisted the urge to demand the purely emotional victory of &#8220;marriage&#8221;, we would already have legally equal civil unions in the majority of states instead of just in 3.</p>
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		<title>By: utsu</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50762</link>
		<dc:creator>utsu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 19:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50762</guid>
		<description>I don't know what is best, the happiness of those who have had to wait for this or the misery and disappointment of those that feared this wonderful, enlightened and uncriticizable decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know what is best, the happiness of those who have had to wait for this or the misery and disappointment of those that feared this wonderful, enlightened and uncriticizable decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Tully</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50753</link>
		<dc:creator>Tully</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 18:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50753</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Just to amplify what Claudia said, the analogy to interracial marriage is very, very close.

&lt;/em&gt;No, it's not. Neither &lt;em&gt;Loving&lt;/em&gt; nor &lt;em&gt;Perez&lt;/em&gt; are really applicable. Both assume the ancient established legal definition of marriage, that of a man to a woman, and say that race cannot be a discriminating factor. &lt;em&gt;No state that I am aware of prohibits a gay person from marrying someone of the opposite sex because they're gay.&lt;/em&gt; There is no discrimination there on the grounds of sexual orientation. Gays have the &lt;em&gt;very same&lt;/em&gt; &#34;right of marriage&#34; as everyone else does--to someone of the opposite sex--it's just not all that useful to them. That's not discrimination preventing the enjoyment of an &lt;em&gt;existing&lt;/em&gt; right. 

&lt;em&gt;Loving&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;Perez &lt;/em&gt;did not re-write the definition of marriage to include a &lt;em&gt;new&lt;/em&gt; right to marry someone of the same sex, a right never before recognized in Western law. 

And before any pro-gay-marriage people descend to beat on me, I'm just saying why that particular legal argument is inherently flawed. I worked for over a decade to keep a DOMA amendment OFF my state's ballot--and we finally failed. It's been my belief for quite a while that society would eventually come to accept committed gay partnerships as deserving of that legal status, if only militant gays would quit provoking massive backlash with offensive in-your-face tactics. That within a another generation it would be a &lt;em&gt;de facto&lt;/em&gt; victory.

And legislation--the proper avenue--was indeed trending that way. But the militancy provoked the backlash, and that backlash is consistently resulting in state constitutional barriers in the form of DOMA amendments. Those are much higher legal hurdles than any simple legislative fight can ever be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Just to amplify what Claudia said, the analogy to interracial marriage is very, very close.</p>
<p></em>No, it&#8217;s not. Neither <em>Loving</em> nor <em>Perez</em> are really applicable. Both assume the ancient established legal definition of marriage, that of a man to a woman, and say that race cannot be a discriminating factor. <em>No state that I am aware of prohibits a gay person from marrying someone of the opposite sex because they&#8217;re gay.</em> There is no discrimination there on the grounds of sexual orientation. Gays have the <em>very same</em> &quot;right of marriage&quot; as everyone else does&#8211;to someone of the opposite sex&#8211;it&#8217;s just not all that useful to them. That&#8217;s not discrimination preventing the enjoyment of an <em>existing</em> right. </p>
<p><em>Loving</em> and <em>Perez </em>did not re-write the definition of marriage to include a <em>new</em> right to marry someone of the same sex, a right never before recognized in Western law. </p>
<p>And before any pro-gay-marriage people descend to beat on me, I&#8217;m just saying why that particular legal argument is inherently flawed. I worked for over a decade to keep a DOMA amendment OFF my state&#8217;s ballot&#8211;and we finally failed. It&#8217;s been my belief for quite a while that society would eventually come to accept committed gay partnerships as deserving of that legal status, if only militant gays would quit provoking massive backlash with offensive in-your-face tactics. That within a another generation it would be a <em>de facto</em> victory.</p>
<p>And legislation&#8211;the proper avenue&#8211;was indeed trending that way. But the militancy provoked the backlash, and that backlash is consistently resulting in state constitutional barriers in the form of DOMA amendments. Those are much higher legal hurdles than any simple legislative fight can ever be.</p>
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		<title>By: Claudia</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50751</link>
		<dc:creator>Claudia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 18:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50751</guid>
		<description>Jason, I can't really second-guess the people who tried for marriage, but I can guess about it, based on the same thing that happened during the same debate in Spain (that has full marriage equality now). The issue about &#34;civil unions&#34; (or as they are called here: &#34;Pareja de hecho&#34;, approximately &#34;established relationship&#34;) in Spain was that if you allowed gays to be given a special name for their union two things would happen. First and most importantly, legislation would be separate, which means that though you could legislate it as equal the first day, every additional right granted to marriage would end up being fought for in the case of civil unions, since the fate of gay and heterosexual relationships in the law wouldn't be bound. You could reduce rights to gay couples, but you would never dare do so if you knew you'd also have to deal with all the straight couples. The other issue was recognition, giving a separate name implies that it's a different sort of relationship, not really equal to straights. It would be like giving mixed race marriages the special name &#34;hybrid couple&#34;.

Of course the immediate question arises, then why not eliminate the word marriage entirely from the law? The answer is simple, straights don't want that. The opposition would paint gays as not only trying to get hitched, but trying to tell straights that their marriages weren't real marriages! Also some people say that the sheer number of places that mention &#34;marriage&#34; or &#34;married&#34; in the law is so big that it makes eliminating the term unmanageable. This argument doesn't convince me much though. In Spain when gay marriage was legalized all they did was add one phrase to the central marriage law stating &#34;The term marriage will apply equally no matter the gender of the members&#34;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, I can&#8217;t really second-guess the people who tried for marriage, but I can guess about it, based on the same thing that happened during the same debate in Spain (that has full marriage equality now). The issue about &quot;civil unions&quot; (or as they are called here: &quot;Pareja de hecho&quot;, approximately &quot;established relationship&quot;) in Spain was that if you allowed gays to be given a special name for their union two things would happen. First and most importantly, legislation would be separate, which means that though you could legislate it as equal the first day, every additional right granted to marriage would end up being fought for in the case of civil unions, since the fate of gay and heterosexual relationships in the law wouldn&#8217;t be bound. You could reduce rights to gay couples, but you would never dare do so if you knew you&#8217;d also have to deal with all the straight couples. The other issue was recognition, giving a separate name implies that it&#8217;s a different sort of relationship, not really equal to straights. It would be like giving mixed race marriages the special name &quot;hybrid couple&quot;.</p>
<p>Of course the immediate question arises, then why not eliminate the word marriage entirely from the law? The answer is simple, straights don&#8217;t want that. The opposition would paint gays as not only trying to get hitched, but trying to tell straights that their marriages weren&#8217;t real marriages! Also some people say that the sheer number of places that mention &quot;marriage&quot; or &quot;married&quot; in the law is so big that it makes eliminating the term unmanageable. This argument doesn&#8217;t convince me much though. In Spain when gay marriage was legalized all they did was add one phrase to the central marriage law stating &quot;The term marriage will apply equally no matter the gender of the members&quot;.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50742</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 16:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50742</guid>
		<description>I think the discussion of whether the word 'marriage' or 'civil union' ought to be used brings home the fact that social conservatives long ago gave up the right to claim that the state should only sanction 'marriage' based on the concept of man-woman relationships being good for society because of the stabilizing influence of family. And that's because many of the churches signed on to a more liberal view of marriage which allows for no-fault divorce- which certainly doesn't lead to the kind of stabilizing commited relationship that gives children a more reliable two parent home. Having ceded that part of the argument (though as Claudia pointed out, the Catholic Church hasn't done so), the religious right can no longer say that the state should only sanction certain kinds of unions. On the other hand though, keeping the terminology straight would help- all civil marriages which allow for no fault divorce, whether heterosexual or homosexual, should more properly be termed civil unions while the covenental lifelong commitment of marriage should be a construct reserved for either religious organizations or secular ones who opt for that kind of commitment. Either way, the civil implications would be the same but the churches could attempt to persuade people that continuing the tradition of a more sacred and lasting union is a good thing for couples, for children, and for society in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the discussion of whether the word &#8216;marriage&#8217; or &#8216;civil union&#8217; ought to be used brings home the fact that social conservatives long ago gave up the right to claim that the state should only sanction &#8216;marriage&#8217; based on the concept of man-woman relationships being good for society because of the stabilizing influence of family. And that&#8217;s because many of the churches signed on to a more liberal view of marriage which allows for no-fault divorce- which certainly doesn&#8217;t lead to the kind of stabilizing commited relationship that gives children a more reliable two parent home. Having ceded that part of the argument (though as Claudia pointed out, the Catholic Church hasn&#8217;t done so), the religious right can no longer say that the state should only sanction certain kinds of unions. On the other hand though, keeping the terminology straight would help- all civil marriages which allow for no fault divorce, whether heterosexual or homosexual, should more properly be termed civil unions while the covenental lifelong commitment of marriage should be a construct reserved for either religious organizations or secular ones who opt for that kind of commitment. Either way, the civil implications would be the same but the churches could attempt to persuade people that continuing the tradition of a more sacred and lasting union is a good thing for couples, for children, and for society in general.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50741</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 16:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50741</guid>
		<description>Regardless of the fact that their demand for substantive equality under law is on very strong ground, I have long maintained that gay rights advocates made a very serious error in insisting that the word &#34;marriage&#34; be used and rejecting the alternative of civil unions with absolutely equal legal standing under law to marriage.  By insisting on the word &#34;marriage&#34;, gay rights advocates increased resistance and significantly delayed what I think is a necessary victory for the general cause of civil rights.  

Right or wrong is beside the point when we are talking about effective political tactics and by remaining fixated on the word &#34;marriage&#34;, gay rights advocates often find themselves facing more opposition that was necessary to face and for no gain other than a purely emotional one.

I think gay rights advocates would be well-advised to keep their eye on the ball.  The issue is obtaining equal legal standing and equal privileges.  What we call it is unimportant and if avoiding the word &#34;marriage&#34; gives a sop that mollifies people who would otherwise be opposed, the only people who care are those who want to &#34;win&#34; more than they want to really &lt;em&gt;win&lt;/em&gt;.  As Shakespere said, a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless of the fact that their demand for substantive equality under law is on very strong ground, I have long maintained that gay rights advocates made a very serious error in insisting that the word &quot;marriage&quot; be used and rejecting the alternative of civil unions with absolutely equal legal standing under law to marriage.  By insisting on the word &quot;marriage&quot;, gay rights advocates increased resistance and significantly delayed what I think is a necessary victory for the general cause of civil rights.  </p>
<p>Right or wrong is beside the point when we are talking about effective political tactics and by remaining fixated on the word &quot;marriage&quot;, gay rights advocates often find themselves facing more opposition that was necessary to face and for no gain other than a purely emotional one.</p>
<p>I think gay rights advocates would be well-advised to keep their eye on the ball.  The issue is obtaining equal legal standing and equal privileges.  What we call it is unimportant and if avoiding the word &quot;marriage&quot; gives a sop that mollifies people who would otherwise be opposed, the only people who care are those who want to &quot;win&quot; more than they want to really <em>win</em>.  As Shakespere said, a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.</p>
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		<title>By: Claudia</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50740</link>
		<dc:creator>Claudia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 16:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50740</guid>
		<description>tonto, personally I don't think the word &#34;marriage&#34; belongs to the church. Certainly it would be unconstitutional to say that. At the most you could possibly say that marriage is a religious concept but have to admit that it can also mean one man with four wives (the Islamic concept) or one man with 50 wives (the FLDS concept). I still wouldn't agree that religion owns the word marriage, and even THEN, certain religious denominations DO allow for same-sex marriage, so calling a same sex marriage exactly that doesn't interfere with all religious intepretations. Catholics don't accept the marriage of a divorcee as valid, and yet we still call it marriage.

In any event, though personally I would just as well call them all marriage and let religious institutions call marriage what they like (this is already the case) if the whole mess were to be fixed (and it wouldn't) by just calling EVERY marriage, homosexual and heterosexual something entirely different, civil union, civil marriage, union contract, beezlebeeb ducky, whatever, I'd sign on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tonto, personally I don&#8217;t think the word &quot;marriage&quot; belongs to the church. Certainly it would be unconstitutional to say that. At the most you could possibly say that marriage is a religious concept but have to admit that it can also mean one man with four wives (the Islamic concept) or one man with 50 wives (the FLDS concept). I still wouldn&#8217;t agree that religion owns the word marriage, and even THEN, certain religious denominations DO allow for same-sex marriage, so calling a same sex marriage exactly that doesn&#8217;t interfere with all religious intepretations. Catholics don&#8217;t accept the marriage of a divorcee as valid, and yet we still call it marriage.</p>
<p>In any event, though personally I would just as well call them all marriage and let religious institutions call marriage what they like (this is already the case) if the whole mess were to be fixed (and it wouldn&#8217;t) by just calling EVERY marriage, homosexual and heterosexual something entirely different, civil union, civil marriage, union contract, beezlebeeb ducky, whatever, I&#8217;d sign on.</p>
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		<title>By: wj</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50724</link>
		<dc:creator>wj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 14:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50724</guid>
		<description>Perez is not relevant to gay marriage only if you assume that homosexuality is strictly a matter of choice by the individuals involved.  On the evidence, it generally is not.  (Granted, there are some apparently bisexual individuals, who can make a choice.  But that is a smaller, and separate, minority.)  At which point, biology is indeed the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perez is not relevant to gay marriage only if you assume that homosexuality is strictly a matter of choice by the individuals involved.  On the evidence, it generally is not.  (Granted, there are some apparently bisexual individuals, who can make a choice.  But that is a smaller, and separate, minority.)  At which point, biology is indeed the point.</p>
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		<title>By: tonto</title>
		<link>http://www.poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50721</link>
		<dc:creator>tonto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 14:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://poligazette.com/2008/05/16/gay-marriage-ok-in-california/#comment-50721</guid>
		<description>Not to take sides here one way or another, but doesn't citing Perez v Sharpe, present a problem here. Biologically speaking (and morally, but thats not where I'm going with this), Perez v Sharpe was the correct decision. I don't see how it can be applied to gay marriage. Shoot, I want to be a jockey, but my biology won't allow it.

And just to be clear, gay couples deserve the same rights as married couples. All this fighting over a word. When I was a kid and we came across a couple that was not married in a church, my mom would say (cueing Louie Andersons mother in voice and look) &#34;civil marriage&#34;. Why don't we just go to that,  for all couples not married in the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to take sides here one way or another, but doesn&#8217;t citing Perez v Sharpe, present a problem here. Biologically speaking (and morally, but thats not where I&#8217;m going with this), Perez v Sharpe was the correct decision. I don&#8217;t see how it can be applied to gay marriage. Shoot, I want to be a jockey, but my biology won&#8217;t allow it.</p>
<p>And just to be clear, gay couples deserve the same rights as married couples. All this fighting over a word. When I was a kid and we came across a couple that was not married in a church, my mom would say (cueing Louie Andersons mother in voice and look) &quot;civil marriage&quot;. Why don&#8217;t we just go to that,  for all couples not married in the church.</p>
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