Germany to Turkey: Show Some Respect for Christians
I agree with German Bishops on this one: They are calling for the rededication of a church in the Turkish city of Tarsus, arguing that not only would this be good for the Christians living in Turkey, but that Turkish openness towards Christians would be helpful toward the acceptance of Turks in Germany, and in the rest of Western Europe.
If the West sees that Christians are truly tolerated in Turkey, the attitude towards Turks will become more positive. It is that simple. Many people in the West say about Muslim immigrants who ask of them to change because the population is changing “why should we? When we go to your country you won’t change for us either. If Christians want to exercise their freedom to worship as they see fit in the countries where these Muslim immigrants come from, they often run into trouble.”
And there is something to that charge. It is not, these days, as if Turkey is trying to make life impossible for Christians, but it is not exactly helpful towards them either.
Some Turks, however, think that the Bishops are basically threatening Turkey: if you don’t do this, you have a problem. And, it has to be said, the timing could indeed have been better: in recent months, several houses with Turkish immigrants living in them (in Germany) have been burned to the ground.
The particular Church in question has not been a Church for over 70 years. First it was used as an, check this, army depot, after that - now - it was turned into a museum. One could argue that even if there are not many Christians living in Tarsus and that, as a result, the Church is often empty, it could have been used for a better purpose than as an army depot. Christ teached non-violence, basically, and what does the Turkish government do? It turns a place in which people worship Christ into a tool for the army; a place where the army can put away the tools it uses in war.
That is utterly inconsiderate, possibly even offending to Christians.
If Turkish immigrants in the West want to be treated with respect, and do not want to be offended, it seems to me that they should encourage their own government to treat Christians as they want to be treated in the West.
No?
Some Turkish Christians, meanwhile, say that the German Bishops take the wrong approach. Christ advocated turning the other cheeck, but the German Bishops do no such thing, one Christian living in Turkey told TDN.
True enough, but I agree with Ali Murat Yel, a sociologist from Fatih University disagreed. He told TND that although it may not conform with turn-the-other-cheek dictums of faith, there is nothing wrong with some pragmatism when it comes to faith-related issues.
The German newspaper the Spiegel recently pointed out, by the way, that the Turkish government checks what religious leaders teach. “Without government approval, no religious community can be active in Turkey. Muslim clerics must also submit their sermons to the authorities. The rule was introduced during the country’s founding in an effort to keep Islam under control. The strict system is intended to guarantee the state’s freedom from religious influences, but it also drastically restricts Christians’ freedom to practice their faith,” the newspaper reported.
And that is a downside of trying to keep extremists under control. Turkey has always realized that there are quite some fundamentalists living in this country who, when possible, would and will try to turn Turks into fundamentalists as well who would then try to take over the government and turn Turkey into an Islamic state. Therefore the government came up with a plan to check what Imams are saying. Although it is not exactly a Western approach, I think that the government is right to do this. Too many Westerners look at other countries and other problems purely from their own perspective. They confuse their values with universal values. They think that when something works well in the West, it will work well in every part of the world.
Sadly it does not quite work like that. There are universal values and principles, but they are hard to define. The older I become, and the more I see of the world and read about it, the more I agree with Edmund Burke on this. Every country needs its own specific approach, its own specific plan, and its own specific principles. There are universal values, but they are not as easy to define as many would like. As such, the Human Rights Declaration of the United Nations is a sign of how selfish and self-oriented the West is. Those rights work well in the West, but they do not and will not work well in every other country. If you, for instance, want to keep Islamists in check in the Middle East - and also in Turkey - you have to limit what we would call the freedom of religion. It is that simple.
So what should Turkey do with this? Well, for now I would not advocate changing the laws of the coutnry. That subject has to be studied extremely carefully. Simply approve the request of the Bishops and become a bit more tolerant… And take a look at the current laws to see whether some of them may still be necessary, or whether some have become outdated. After all, this country has changed. Not only do countries need different approaches and different system, time also changes the approaches and systems needed to govern a country effectively and good.
Amen- reciprocity is a huge issue and I’m glad that the Catholic Church is taking a firm stance. I don’t see how the doctrine of turning the other cheek even applies here- if anything, a Muslim who calls on Christians to turn the other cheek in regard to their right to worship is trying to take advantage. It’s like: Hey, aren’t you guys supposed to not fight back? Then here- take this, and this, and this! And here’s what we’ll do to you if you even think about treating us the way we’re treating you!"
Michael, overall I have to agree with you, but dont forget that the street-jerk government party in power now in turkey would use all possible means to change the law in which they can be much more influential, i.e., if you loosen the laws for how the sermons would be conducted in minority Christian churches then they would use it as a pre-text to let the imams to speak to their likings. As you pointed out, this is exactly what we need to avoid to suppress the massacre of secularism considering the realities of ground rules in Turkey. Sometimes, I wish we’d have embraced Buddhism or keep Shamanism instead of Islam in 1000s during Anatolian conquest era. The middle east would have been in much better shape due to non-Islamic 600 years of Ottoman ruling in the area and today’s Turkey would be like a central European country where the fear of fundamentalism would be mere fiction novel topic.
Even when it tries the Turkish government is insensitive as when it renovated Akhtamar but as a museum not as a church. http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=69772
Let Turkey start by returning religious property seized from Christians.
The Turkish government is building mosques in Germany, so I believe it is completely legitimate to ask for equal treatement of Christians in Turkey.
Koran says :" All the religions of God have equal value, on the surface of the earth. In the other world, the only religion is ‘Islam.’ ( "Islam" means = "The religion of Peace" - "slm" = peace)
—
When I talk with the Professors of Religion and Imams at high positions, they agree with this. When I talk with imams with limited education, they say, unfortunately, "Islam is the last religion, hence it is the best religion." (Also referring to the Bible having different versions, yet Koran having only one version.) Yet, Koran also says,
"To those, who hold all the prophets of God equally, we have a big present in the other world."
—
The Bible written by Barnaba (kept in Louvre) is said to state that
Jesus said, "The saviour who will come after me will be Ahmad (Mohammed)" Yet, other Bibles don’t state this.
Koran respects fully Christianity, Judaism, and all religions of God.
—
I think it would be the best if only the best educated imams, priests and rabbi educated the people in the religions, because the undereducated religious men seem to teach wrong things.
—
And even better, if all the believers of God, regardless what religion they follow, read not only their own books, but the books of the other religions of God as well- to avoid any misunderstandings about the other religions of God.
God is one and is not under the monopoly of any religion.
All believers! Let’s unite and not fight!
Askin Ozcan
Author of SMALL MIRACLES
http://www.outskirtspress.com/smallmiracles
http://www.prlog.org/10038192-sure-way-to-world-peace.html
The Quran also has different versions. for example, in Turkey the Hafs version is used and in Morocco the Ouarch version.
I agree that only stupid people think "Islam is the best". Good or bad is what people do. (I personally believe that some things in mainstream Christian theology diverge from what Jesus intended, but I also believe much what is called Islam today doesn’thave to do much with God anymore, terrorism, fanatism, wahhabism…)
" God is one and is not under the monopoly of any religion.".
A very good sentence. For those who read Turkish, I recommend "Cennet Kimsenin Tekelinde Değildir" by Prof.Dr. Süleyman Ateş concerning this topic.
"If the West sees that Christians are truly tolerated in Turkey, the attitude towards Turks will become more positive. It is that simple."
Is this a joke? The myth of "barbaric" Turks around Europe and all the Turcophobia associated with it is stuff of legend, I hope I don’t need to "enlighten" people on that. Unfortunately too many Europeans think that their hatred of Turks is justified precisely because of the mythology and imagery of "Barbaric Turks" that reaches back to the Age of Enlightenment. As a prelude to the same old story, Turkish hatred around Europe, especially in Germany, is on the rise as of today.
Some of the hate literature as well as hate speech targeting Turks have reached alarming proportions, yet nobody seems to care. It is because Europeans are so prejudiced that it seems natural to them to see Turks face the kind of hatred that they do. Sometimes for Europeans to understand how bad of a hate literature they are reading, they need to remove the word "Turk" and replace it with "Jew".
Do you think German neo-Nazis would be less willing to burn Turkish homes and less willing to commit hate crimes against minorities in Germany - IF ONLY - a Tarsus Church got renovated?
Regarding Army Depot controversy:
Turkish people had a lot of property before the breakup of the Ottoman Empire that they had to leave because they were forced to migrate from all these places in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus region. My family had a large residence that they had to leave in the city of Thessaloniki, which was converted to… Guess what? An ARMY DEPOT !!!! I’m not making this up just to counter the army depot detail in this cute little story or in order to defend the Turkish side, but this is the truth as I heard it from my family.
Also the theme in the story seems to be that there should be a "two-way street" in give and take and bilateral relationships. I agree, and that’s why I undertake the representation of the Turkish side of the story that’s clearly being under-served here.
That Germany would press for such stuff without addressing the rising of hatred against their minorities, specifically Turks, is hypocritical to say the least. They also recently refused to cooperate with the Turkish envoy who wanted to investigate these hate crimes against Turkish minorities because they asserted that it was Germany’s *internal* affair.
NOT to mention that Turks also have difficulty building mosques in various places in Germany. This controversy has included the idea that perhaps there are various "ulterior motives" to building mosques in a Christian country. There have been various publicized discussions about Germans worrying about the presence of mosques as well as the voice of call to prayer.
On the whole, I do agree that this church should be renovated, although you must acknowledge that the "ulterior motive" argument could go both ways. However, JudasPriest makes a very good point which is exactly what worries so many people in Turkey today, rather than some supposed ulterior Christian motive. Because AKP, acting as a political conduit for radical Islamic elements, could use these things as a pretext for a more relaxed religious agenda, while appearing "multicultural" and "tolerant".
That’s why all religions, including Islam, are heavily regulated by the Turkish State precisely to prevent the kind of fundamentalism that could threaten the regime. So unfortunately it’s a delicate balance and the country has not been able to increase "religious tolerance" in many ways. This also includes the headscarf controversy that happens in Turkey, and increasingly in Germany, today.
But for a journalistic report to cover Germany’s "concerns" for renovating a church in Turkey while disregarding the utter contempt and discrimination the country shows to its Muslim, and specifically Turkish minorities, or portraying the hate crimes and violence against Turks as a "fringe" element of German society as opposed to a more serious and growing movement, is one-sided. Yet this is the kind of coverage you get in the press as long as it is Western.
Selin
Where is the freedom of religion in the Islamic world?
Overlooked in the haze of the Islamic high - of ‘Islam is so great’ and ’sooooo peaceful’.
The Turkish took over Greece - remember - and the Greeks got their land back - unfortunately your family lost out.
But look who else lost out - a few million Armenians and Greeks - who were killed by the Turkish forces and state sanctioned policy - and now in Turkey a mere mention of the first Holocaust of the 20th century would result in your arrest.
The Arabs are always moaning about the colonisers - implying westerners - but Turkey colonised the majority of the Arab/Middle Eastern states and North Africa.
It is a wonder how Turkey could have gone from being so great to so weak. And now it feels that somehow - it has the right to join the EU to do the work to restore its economy that - really it should do.
I have been to Turkey - so save the speech - the majority of your country is rural farmland and outside of the cities people are largely poor and very Islamic. You have a migration of these country people to the larger towns and cities who are happy to see Turkey turned into an Islamic state - as well as to gain entry into Europe.
But these two don’t go together. Erdogan is happy to bring an Islamised Turkey into Europe - he has already stated that he wishes to change Istanbul into Medina (Arabia) - and more worryingly that - democracy is like a streetcar - when it brings you to your stop - you get off.
Never mind the Germans – as Turkey has a few problems - with Islam and the modern world for one. The Germans don’t care about nudity - they would strip down in a minute (next to a lake) - but for the Turkish if the woman is not wearing a headscarf - practically restricting her breathing than - she is a whore. In Germany the Turkish don’t wish to integrate because they wish to set themselves up as being above the Germans - yet while still remaining largely in relatively poor conditions. Erdogan has taken it upon himself to tell the Turkish in Germany not to integrate - but to move in to political positions.
I guess so that once he drives into Europe on his streetcar named democracy - there will a strong Islamic political support for him - coming via Germany. With the aim of course to bring as much of Europe under Islam as possible - i.e. deliver Europe to Saudi Arabia. The real reason why Islamic nations restrict Christianity - is because they hope Islam will become the dominant religion – the world over. We just want to say - that it is now a two way street.
Answer to A.A.B. Thank you for the information you gave which was new to me. I am more and more interested in forming a group under the name, "THE BELIEVERS", who are interested in studying and discussing all the religions of God. Actually, we have such a loose group in Stockholm, with an Orthodox priest, an Iranian scholar of Islam, a few Arab friends, a Swedish geologist, a Turkish teacher, myself, a German Prince, a French teacher, an Eritrean lady. Sometimes Mormon missionairies also join us for discussions. In my book, "SMALL MIRACLES", I have outlined in the last chapter, some ideas for such a movement - which is not new actually- as both the Holy Koran and The Holy Bible speak in favor of an "Abraham’s Nation" where all believers of God stay united or close to one another. The translator of the Koran into Swedish, H.E. Bernstrom, (who was the Ambassador of Sweden to Morocco) also held the same idea. You, with your knowledge of Islam, can be a very good leader in our group I think. Where are you located? What are you doing now? Kind regards Prof.(h.c.) Askin Ozcan
Comment to Cole:
1- Misunderstandings and malpractices about God’s religions are not pertinent only to Islam. Christianity also saw the murder of Kepler, as he said that "the earth was revolving around the sun" and Galileo saved himself in the last minute from being burnt, for the same cause (He accepted in the last minute, earth was not revolving around the sun- to save his head). If one studies the History of Religions, one learns how the intentional and non-intentional misteachings of religions shaped the tragic history of mankind in many instances. (Political and economic causes)
The books tell the truths and the intentions. There is nothing wrong with the religions. It is those who misinterpret them are wrong. Education is our only way to salvation - in religions, sciences, arts, designs, planning…
2-Re Turks: After the WW1, I think the Turks did a very good job under Ataturk, to get "their" land back from the British, the French, the Italians, the Russians, the Greeks who had occupied a great part of Turkey. In the WW1 and in the Turkish War of Independence, many died from every nation. Eversince then, Turkey is in peace with her neighbors. I see some bias in your statement or misinformation.
The archives of many countries (Sweden which sent officers as observers, to the war in 1915, between the Ottomans and the British; Russian archives, Ottoman archives, British archives, German archives, - the German general was heading the Ottoman army then-, and even the U.S. archives have documents which clearly mention there was no holocaust of Armenians. But, Armenians do not open up their archives. Why not? There are many evidences that Armenians made a holocaust of the Turks in the past (Lake Van - 70.000 Turks were killed by Armenians ) and in the modern times ( in Nagorna Karabach and of the Turkish Republic’s diplomats). You can check some of these evidences at http://www.turkuaz.us and in the books of Prof. Norman Stone. http://www.wearetheturks.org has also some info.
3-How long have you been to Turkey? Anthropologists don’t listen to anyone who don’t have a degree in anthropology plus a 2 years’ residence in a specific country. I have 10 years of studies at the universities (but no degree in anthropology) and an honorary professorship and am from Turkey, and yet, they won’t even
listen to me!
You hold "rural life" as equal to poverty and "urbanity" as equal
to richness- with all its crime, anonymity, inaccessibility, social
disorder, traffic chaos and accidents, and thousand and one problems any social science will show with statistics. In the USA,
in the last 40 years, more people immigrated from cities to rural areas than vice versa.
In Turkey about 50% people live in cities. Istanbul is 17 million, followed by Ankara, Izmir, Adana, Bursa, etc. There are rich, middle class and poor people. You have missed the "sights" of rich life in Turkey- both in the cities and in the rural areas.
In France, urban and rural life is also 50% - 50%.
I really wish the urban areas were not so much! In the U.S.A. there is not enough farmland for agriculture!
4-As for rural people immigrating to the cities : it is said 98% are Muslims. I say very few are. To be Muslim, one must have read and understood the Koran and be practising it to a good degree.
How many percent are like this?
There are ideas and projects to stop the immigration from the rural areas to the cities. But, unfortunately they are not applied
so fast! In Russia they had achieved certain control on migration
to the cities and even from one city to another. As they reverted back to capitalism, they lost that control.
5- Turkish intellectuals don’t want to join EU.
6- The rest of the things you write are correct. Well ignorance
is everywhere. We must fight it. Narcomany, alcoholism, divorces in the west are just as bad as the cigarette smoking, "headscarfed ignorance", disobeyance to the traffic rules, corruption and lack of order in Turkey. There are good things in both in Europe and Turkey. The point should be to learn from one another.
I hope I have been of some help.
Best regards.
Prof.(h.c.) Askin Ozcan
this taliban mantality continues since the creation of so-called "modern" turkish republic with more than 3000 armenian churches destroyed or transformed into mosque in other words a cultural genocide.After the genocide of the Armenian people. What about that stupid khoca who does not let Armenians pray in the churche of Kars by arguing that it is a mosque now (transformed by force) a church which dates from the Armenian kingdom of Pakradouni 1000years ago.That’s the TURKISH-taliban mantality.