Turkey feels unwanted in Europe
Europe is making a big mistake by giving Turks the idea that they’re unwanted in Europe. The sad reality of the matter is, of course, that they are unwanted. Most West Europeans don’t want Turkey to join the EU. Why? Prejudices. Most Europeans don’t know much about Turkey, they only know that it’s a Muslim country and that many Turkish immigrants are religiously quite conservative and refuse to integrate. At least; that’s the picture most have, because we don’t know much about life in Turkey itself and because we often confuse Turkish immigrants with, say, Moroccan immigrants and because most of us think that Turkish immigrants are the average Turk.
But those who have actually visited Turkey know better. Those who migrate to, say, the Netherlands, are often the poor and uneducated in Turkey (as well).* If you visit, for instance, Izmir, you’ll see that most big-city Turks are modern, open-minded, friendly and well educated.
Turkey is a country on the rise. Europe will benefit from allowing Turkey to join the European Union. The Turkish economy is growing and will continue to grow, the country is modernizing constantly… if you want to invest in a European country, I’d advise you to invest in Turkey.
Of course there also other considerations: we must encourage Turkey to focus on the West, not on the East. If we give Turks the idea that we’re not fond of them, that we don’t consider them to be ‘one of us,’ we encourage them to focus on the East. And that will create problems in the coming decades.
*Note: certainly not all Turkish immigrants are like that. Now that I know more Turkish immigrants I can say that many of them most certainly are educated and willing, eager even, to learn Dutch.
That’s most likely the least academic article I’ve read in a while. So basically being religious means you’re uneducated and that you have to leave aside your faith to become "modern"? I’m in full support of a secularist state; one that would be able to respect all religious and ethnic groups as well. The truth about Western Europe is that they expect Turks to become complete atheists so that they can integrate into the Western society. Why don’t the Westerners leave Christianity then? First off, it is important to note that what made the Turks who they are today were the Ottomans, who were Muslims. A great portion of the Turkish culture reflects around Islam and you can’t deny the Turks their culture. Second of all, I think the reason why Europeans are in denial of having Turkey join the EU is because of the past occupations of Europe, at the hands of the Ottomans. Get over yourselves, those were centuries ago. It’s not like the Europeans didn’t conquer all of Africa and enslave its people.
Nonsense. And you accuse me of not writing an academic article?
By the way: it’s a blog. Blog. Not an academical blog. Not an academical magazine. A blog.
Listen my academical friend, I’m European and I can tell you that those occupations have nothing whatsoever to do with Europe’s wish not to have Turkey join the EU. As you may know, strongest opposition comes from countries that were never conquered by the Ottomans in the first place.
A good portion of Turkish culture does reflect around Islam, and that’s not or shouldn’t be a problem. What is a problem is that Erdogan et al. want to bring religion into the public sphere. That is a problem.
Anything else to say about the article my “academical” commenter?
First of all, when you talk about issues such as these, you need some form of education in your pattern of speech before you go about with making claims that you don’t even know about. I recently heard over the news the regulations that the EU wants to impose on Turkey before it joins the EU. One of those regulations reflects around the headscarf. I don’t agree with it and no one in my family wears it because we’re extremely open minded when it comes to these issues, but people have to understand that the headscarf is something big among the rural regions of Turkey. You cannot deny people their rights of freedom and liberty as long as they’re not infring upon others. You’d have to excuse me for my accusations because I searched Turkey in news on Google and I found this, so I thought you were a journalist.
And thank you for admitting that Turkish culture revolves around Islam. But after encoutnering Western and Eastern Europeans alike, I noticed their complete hostility towards Turks because of Islam. Second of all, many of my Serb and Greek friends attack at the past occupations from the Ottomans. Sometimes, when Westerners attack at Muslims, I don’t blame them because of the ignorance and savagery emerging from the Arab world. That is why I think Turkey should approach the West, in order to enlighten its people about how Turks can be open minded while keeping their religion and to also show that not all Muslims are a threath. Also, they should approach the East to bring extremist Muslims out of their atrocities. Turkey should remain the gateway between the East and the West. Maybe solutions can be found for the conflicts. Once again you’d have to excuse me for what I said. I have Dutch friends in my university and I think you people are very friendly.
Michael, even if the backward, non-integrated Turk is not the average Turk, they could well be the average immigrant Turk. The fact is that save a small minority of academics and businesspeople, the people who immigrate tend to be the poorest and least educated, because their need is more dire. For the EU that means those rural uneducated Turks that seem to be an issue in Turkey, and would become more so in Europe. If your average immigrant Turk isn’t like that then more publicity needs to be made about it.
Additionally, I’m afraid that Turkey isn’t really Europe, or at least a majority of it isn’t. There’s nothing wrong with that mind you, Japan isn’t Europe and it’s a fine country. But culturally and historically, Turkey hasn’t been a part of Europe. Additionally, I am leery of the idea of bringing in an EU member that borders on Iraq, of all places, and where there are regions that seem almost independently controlled (and yes, I’m aware Spain has quite some issues of it’s own in this respect, but the PKK makes ETA look almost like a tea party).
Also the outgrown role of the military in civilian life, and the almost routine way they have intervened in the past, does not make for an image of stability. I accept the idea that ut was necessary to preserve the country, but it does lend itself to doubting the attractiveness of Turkey EU membership.
Of course even if Turkey weren’t an EU member, they could still be a favorable partner country. There’s no reason why the EU could negotiate favorable trade policies and invest in Turkey to help bring it forward, but I’m not sure I’m convinced it should be part of the EU.
Sorry I meant to show that the Muslims are not a threat***
Actually, I do know a bit about this subject Mehmet Gusein. Perhaps you should do a little bit of research yourself before you start commenting. If you don’t want to… sus lan.
Well, thanks for that update. It’s not as if I wasn’t aware of that first sentence quoted above, you see. In fact, I know that in the rural (and backwards) areas of Turkey, women are often forced to cover themselves.
As for your "not infringe upon others": they can wear it at home. They can wear it if they go to the mall. But not allowing them to wear it in governmental buildings and alike isn’t "infringing." It’s called laicism. A strict form of secularism.
Damn, I do know a bit about Turkey, do I not?
Furthermore, your jolly friends who force their daughters and wives to cover up are, wait for it, infringing on the freedom of those women. If they’re allowed to do so official buildings, we all know what will happen: those who don’t cover up will be treated as if they’re inferior, since that’s what the türban wearing types excel at. Aside from that, covering up is a backwards custom, one that shouldn’t be encouraged. It’s a sign of the oppression of women, and of men who can’t control themselves. A sad, barbaric custom in other words.
Journalists don’t write academical essays Mehmet. I understand that you don’t understand the difference between a journalist article, an opinion article, and an academical essay… but if that’s the case, you would be wise not to comment on any of them.
Thank you for admitting? Why in the world’s name do you thank me for noting the glaring obvious? But there’s more about Turkish culture than that. Turkish culture also revolves are the family, for instance. And friends.
As for hostility: perhaps you should - once again my dear Mehmet - do some research. Seemingly you don’t even know who I am, or what I normally write. Advise: do some research on me. You’ll quickly find whether I’m biased against Turks and whether or not I despise Muslims.
Since the tone of your second comment wasn’t any better - once again you’re assuming that I know jack about Turkey, only because you disagree with me - I’m not inclined to accept any apology.
Ama… iyi aksamnar.
And we all know that Serbia is a member of the US, isn’t it? O, and that Greece is the one that sets agenda in the EU, right?
And the other countries, Mehmet, you know, the ones whose votes actually carry weight, were never occupied by the Ottomans.
[admin]: comment deleted for…well, everything.
[admin]: third time’s a charm and you’re banned.
I dont blame the Europeans that immediately stereotype all Turks as they see them in their country. Were I to be an European who is not much exposed to living outside of his whereabouts, perhaps I would have had the same initial reactions as I’d not want to see more of the covered women etc. However, for those who know more of a middle class (average maybe) Turk who lives in Turkey and about their intellectual life, they certainly see that these predisposed views are definitely not reflecting the generality and therefore reality. How far back we should look in the history to disqualify Turkey not being historically European. Even long before King Francis I of France European countries always tried to keep their relation firm with the sultan. In this regard, Turkey played a crucial role to keep the European powers in balance which prevented many wars in at least 5 centuries starting long before Turks captured Istanbul in 1453. Ottomans definitely changed Europe historically; promoted balance among England, France, Austria, Germany and undeniably their conquests in Europe affected the future of Eastern Europe for better or worse. Cultural argument is equally not of a major sticking point. Turkish membership would certainly offer its rich mix of many cultures. I feel European having lived in Turkey for 30 years with the quality level of my education, my upbringing, my intellectual level, my listening music, my values, friendship, loyalty, hospitality, respect to personal freedoms. Not only I felt European, but I felt better as I always thought to be fortunate to have been born in this rich environment for there is a lot to take and make a mould of one’s personality. And also not only I felt European but I felt my friends, my teachers, my family, my environment European as well. I also knew that the thought to expand my self-definition as European outside of my circle globally throughout Turkey would be a stretch of the reality and would not be right. However, the process was started to reverse the centuries old backwardness and so far on and off rocky and turbulent the evolution is coming to its transition point as we discuss this not-so-loved nation with majority of Muslims to be debated for its European membership. I believe instead of Europe or Europeans to argue about it, Turkey has to reiterate on European union membership as-to how much it’ll bring and take away for and from her. Yes, ultimate goal is to be European but there are those who think that European membership would alter all the malfunctioning aspects of the republic. Unfortunately, there is no magic bullet to correct judicial system, to bring able political leaders, to prevent feudal power holes in particularly rural areas such as eastern provinces. I am absolutely against hoping for Europe to be a corrector for problems that can only be fixed by the society itself. If you think there are problems for military or supreme court to be intervening into politics for the reasons I do not expect outsiders would have a good grasp of, I’d say let the people of Turkey solve it with no hypocrisy being superimposed in the form of threats for membership requirements. Turkey is not ready on her own today, but at the same time she does not deserve to be treated as a slap-child every time the country experiences problems. Turkey is not in the middle of Europe and therefore, the ground rules and solutions that would otherwise work do not equally work for Turkey due to her races, her history, her location, her legitimate fears from religious fundamentalism. The boundary conditions are so much different than anywhere else in Europe. I hope during Turkey’s quest of becoming a nation of European standards, the Europeans would try to understand her problems better and not see her like a student who could do all sorts of cheating to pass the class. The real help is to emphasize support for the secular nature of the country which equally means to criticize AKP, the party in power that has the main goal of using democracy wagon to change the secular establishment in Turkey that sees no wrong in using religion and its context to demonize secularists by fueling public anger only to ignite anarchy.
EU have no future, all different culture, all different rules and regulation, 2-3 controlling country. We Turks don’t want to be part of this futureless destination.
Turkey is rising, will rise without EU as well. All we want from EU try to be a good neighbor, by the time EU collapse in next 20-30 years we don’t want to be in that mess.
When the time comes, (ending EU and collapse in next 20-30 years) Turkey will be strong enough to rules rest of the EU and bring them civilization and alt the help they may need.
Let Turks be in Turkey not in EU, for your father humanitarian help.
EU have no future, all different culture, all different rules and regulation, 2-3 controlling country. We Turks don?t want to be part of this futureless destination. Turkey is rising, will rise without EU as well. All we want from EU try to be a good neighbor, by the time EU collapse in next 20-30 years we don?t want to be in that mess. When the time comes, (ending EU and collapse in next 20-30 years) Turkey will be strong enough to rules rest of the EU and bring them civilization and alt the help they may need. Let Turks be in Turkey not in EU, for your father humanitarian help. EU have no future, all different culture, all different rules and regulation, 2-3 controlling country. We Turks don?t want to be part of this futureless destination. Turkey is rising, will rise without EU as well. All we want from EU try to be a good neighbor, by the time EU collapse in next 20-30 years we don?t want to be in that mess. When the time comes, (ending EU and collapse in next 20-30 years) Turkey will be strong enough to rules rest of the EU and bring them civilization and alt the help they may need. Let Turks be in Turkey not in EU, for your father humanitarian help.
Muslim nations should boycott Dutch products in response to a film by a Dutch lawmaker that accuses the Koran of inciting violence, "The best reaction by the Islamic world is to avoid buying products made in those countries that allow themselves to insult Islam," I EU "would retreat from the path they are taking once they see their economies are in danger." Geert Wilders, leader of the anti-immigration Freedom Party in the Netherlands, launched his short video on the Internet last month, drawing condemnation from Muslim nations. All Muslim coutry’s Foreign Ministry should summon the Dutch ambassador to protest against the video and called it "heinous and blasphemous. " Wilders’ film urges Muslims to tear out "hate-filled" verses from the Koran, mixing images of bombings with quotations from Islam’s holy book. The video starts and ends with a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad with a bomb under his turban, accompanied by the sound of ticking. The cartoon, first published in Danish newspapers, ignited violent protests around the world in 2006. More than 50 people were killed in those riots in Asia, the Middle East and Africa. This is the reality of EU. We Turks don’t want to be in this mess. No Muslim country insult your Christianity or your profit, this is not first or wont be last. Germans burn down the houses and killed the Turkish people. French, Greece, Dutch, Italians, Swedish, you name it; help to rise Terrorism in Turkey. We dont want to be in this messy Christian club. Just keep your trouble for yourself; just try to be a good neighbor, that’s all we want.
Muslim nations should boycott Dutch products in response to a film by a Dutch lawmaker that accuses the Koran of inciting violence, "The best reaction by the Islamic world is to avoid buying products made in those countries that allow themselves to insult Islam," EU "would retreat from the path they are taking once they see their economies are in danger." Geert Wilders, leader of the anti-immigration Freedom Party in the Netherlands, launched his short video on the Internet last month, drawing condemnation from Muslim nations. All Muslim coutry’s Foreign Ministry should summon the Dutch ambassador to protest against the video and called it "heinous and blasphemous. " Wilders’ film urges Muslims to tear out "hate-filled" verses from the Koran, mixing images of bombings with quotations from Islam’s holy book. The video starts and ends with a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad with a bomb under his turban, accompanied by the sound of ticking. The cartoon, first published in Danish newspapers, ignited violent protests around the world in 2006. More than 50 people were killed in those riots in Asia, the Middle East and Africa. This is the reality of EU. We Turks don’t want to be in this mess. No Muslim country insult your Christianity or your prophet, this is not first or wont be last. Germans burn down the houses and killed the Turkish people. French, Greece, Dutch, Italians, Swedish, you name it; help to rise Terrorism in Turkey. We dont want to be in this messy Christian club. Just keep your trouble for yourself; just try to be a good neighbor, that’s all we want.
What I find sad about "Europeans" who are proud of their European identity is that they, themselves don’t know themselves and their neighbors.
The Ottoman Empire has greatly influenced European culture and values just as Britain, France, Germany and Russia have. Turkey is one of the top 5 dominant countries in Europe in terms of importance, production and value. The smaller countries obviously don’t want to have yet another powerful nation join the EU, and the larger countries don’t want to have yet another big partner to convince on matters.
Let’s make a deal, if you are going to even comment on Turks, Turkey, Ottomans… you have to at least visit Turkey 1 time. If every single European visited Turkey before they made any commentary, I am sure the relations would be in better shape. Turkey is in many ways more modern than France and Spain btw…
[admin]: Edited to remove bigotry
We don?t want EU to be part of Turkeys war against an Independent Kurdistan. If EU pulls the plug of its funding and political support Turkey will match Pakistan in its Culture and Economic Progress. Turks Friend can only be a Turk. We Can be your friends but you are just a mob of ignorant. I have been to turkey and nothing there is Turkish. Its either Greek Converted Mosques or Arab petrol-dollar investments. We don?t want Kemalist in EU either cause they are fascists and undemocratic. WE DONT WANT YOU IN EU YOU HYPOCRITS! TURKS!!!
Care to name which? In any event it doesn’t matter all too much. Turkey could be heaven on earth, the most ultramodern place in the world (which it isn’t) but that doesn’t make it Europe. Japan isn’t in the EU, neither is the US. I don’t reject making Turkey an ally, if that’s favorable to both the EU and Turkey, but to be a member of the EU you have to be EUROPEAN. Greece is a member of the EU because it’s manifestly European, even if they aren’t exactly the tops in terms of modernity and productivity.
Having Turkey in Europe will increase hostility towards existing Muslims in Europe - my advice to my Turkish brothers - please try to find a place in the world on your own. After all Turkey is an old and proud nation in its own right, isn’t it. In other words, Europe is full
Claudia, You said Turkey is not historically European, If you think 600 years of Turco - European affairs dont make it, nothing more I could say to convince you otherwise. You also insist that "to be European" is something Turkey does not possess. If you reject Turkey as not being "European" right off the face value, that means Turkey will never be "European" in your view. Just what entitles being European, a definition that is a function of geography, and worse not subject to change. If thats what you think what "European" is nobody would want to be a part of such static, closed society. Just on the contrary, being European or feeling European is exactly the opposite to my interpretation. One feels European when one is open minded, not prejudicious, free thinking, full of varieties in food, history and rich mix of cultures. I see myself and a lot of Turks with these attributes, as I said earlier, it’d be awfully hard for people to believe this not exposed to see Turks in Turkey. I also acknowledge that there are also Turks like a lot of Europeans who do not possess such attributes. My point is very clear, I do not appreciate the norms for "being European" to be a norm of rigidity rather it should be a norm of a evolving status-quo that can only be felt by the individuals as "being proud in reacting" against fundamentalism, conservatism and stagnation.
Is Izmir Turkey? Isn’t it called "gavur Izmir" by many in the rest of the country? Isn’t it probably Turkey’s most modern and western minded city?
Remember 47% voted AK Parti, 48% want religion to play a role in the public sphere (as opposed to 43% who consider it to be a private matter). These would probably be the ones who would come to other EU countries to look for work.
Turkey should join the EU as soon as the Kemalist project will have won a vast majority of the population. For now I’d say: wait and see. And kick Erdogan and Gül out of office.
By that standard many Americans could be considered Europeans, or Canadians. They happen to not be European because the US is on the other side of the globe. In many ways, Americans have more in common with western Europeans than Turks (though both would hate to admit it) but that doesn’t mean they are a part of Europe.
Europe does in fact have geographical borders, and only about 5% of Turkey falls within them. Turkey, though it doubtlessly has a rich history, is distinct from European history. You yourself say so "European-Turkish relations". Again, having relations does not make you European. The Americas have had deep relations with the Old Continent for centuries but that doesn’t make them European. And as much as I hate to admit it myself, and as un-PC as it is, part of European identity is religious identity, because culture and religion have been tied together through history. That needn’t mean that a Christian country is European, or a Muslim country non-European, but the correlation is undeniable. Also undeniable is the fact that in Turkey, the most westernized people, the ones who would most seem like Europeans, are not the most Muslim ones.
One by one, these factors can be somewhat diminished, perhaps, but taken together, they cast very serious doubts about just how "European" Turkey is. For the upenteenth time, that doesn’t make them lesser. I am fascinated by and admire Japan, I think the EU should maintain good relations and be allies with them, but I don’t think the belong in the EU. Maybe someday a greater union will be made that incorporates all westernized nations, or all the top industrialized nations, and we’ll all be in it together.
I’d not go that far to count Americans as "Europeans" since conservatism is deep in the society, the people exposed to varieties of life is very limited, food is very plain and pop-culture is generally very low standard. There is culture but not so much deeply rooted in the history as its history only begins in late 1600s. It is a patchy work of many immigrants who happen to build a good economy using the vast resources of the new land. I dont want to underestimate the geniosity of the writers and executionits of its successful constitution. However, certainly the new land really stayed unharmed thanks to its distance from Europe where the land and its people saw many human drammas, wars etc. Today the system is based on consumption, you cant see people walking on the streets, or public transportation outside of metropols etc. So, there is a lot of contrast and other factors besides being industrial and "functioning!" democracy to get the European attribute. Many many references suggest and teaches undeniable socio-cultural-historical effects of Turkish conquests on European history. I can cite so many references that goes so much beyond mere representative relations. I am talking about wars, long bloody wars, exchanges of loyal marriages, gifts, ideas. On the other hand, probably what could have otherwise been a much tighter cultural exchange has not really happened mostly due to the religious differences. It is undeniable how Christianity and Islam made (as always) it much more difficult for Turkish-European integration as you put it and rightly so. However, I am against all sorts of narrow and static definitions simply because that they will certainly not lead to progress at all. If you reject "European" argument for Turks that they’ll never get it on the shaky grouds of cultural and historical perspectives, then you are making it much more difficult for even to think about a wider union that could be the best antithesis weapon against fundamentalism. Having said that I dont believe I’ll be seeing Turkey as a member of European union in my life time.
"Europe does in fact have geographical borders, and only about 5% of Turkey falls within them."
This is how Herodotus defined continents about 2500 years ago. Nowadays we know about plate techtonics and the continent is Eurasia. The "geographical" definition of Europe is arbitrary or at best historical. Actually we already have territories in the EU that don’t fit that definition such as French Guiana or the Canary islands. I can even mention an entire member state: Cyprus.
Turkey joining also would not be a problem with territorial continuity, like Canada joining would. So the criteria should be economical, political and shared values, but not "most of Turkey is in Asia".
What will be telling, I think, will be the point (perhaps less than a decade down the road?) when the Republic of Georgia applies to the EU. I suspect that, their location notwithstanding, they will get a fairly easy acceptance. Certainly far easier than Turkey has gotten.
The only reason that they would not would be if Russia decided to be outraged at "another infringement" on their sphere of influence. At that point, the arguments about "not being in Europe would get trotted out. But that would no more be the real reason than it is when the subject is Turkey, now would it?
how can those turks - who talk about tolerance and democracy and respecting christians (Europe) and at the same time denys the killings of more than 4 millions christians whithin Turkey-Armenians,Greeks and Assyrians during 1864-1921.With such criminal heritage can? Turkey share democratic values with Europe.It is a game of dupe.DJIHAD startet in 1881 against christian peoples of Ottoman Empire lasted until the end of 1921And all the friends of Mustafa.K (young-turks) who have taken part to the so-called war of liberation were involved in the Genocide of Armenian people.