Comments on: Punished with a Baby http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/ Politics and world events from a moderately liberal and conservative perspective Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:14:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Tiger http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-64521 Tiger Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:46:14 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-64521 I say "right on!" Babies are a punishment for sex. Most people will tell you that. Even Ann landers had a poll and people could say whether or not they would have kids over again if they knew what it was like ahead of time. 80% of people said they would NOT have kids. That says something. So yeah, married or not, kids are a punishment.  I say "right on!" Babies are a punishment for sex. Most people will tell you that. Even Ann landers had a poll and people could say whether or not they would have kids over again if they knew what it was like ahead of time. 80% of people said they would NOT have kids. That says something. So yeah, married or not, kids are a punishment. 

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]]> By: Trying For A Baby http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-38562 Trying For A Baby Fri, 04 Apr 2008 09:34:45 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-38562 <strong>Trying For A Baby...</strong> I enjoyed reading your blog. What a great thing it is to be able to share information like this on the Internet.... Trying For A Baby…

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]]> By: Tully http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37424 Tully Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:49:34 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37424 Fair enough, Christine. In my case Obama lost me long ago anyway. I heard him speak in person. <em>Yes, as adults we can explain how that’s not punishment but the natural consequences of behavior, but then going to prison is pretty much a natural consequence of some behaviors, too, and we know that that’s punishment. </em>Yup yup. But most people don't think that deeply, the natural-consequences-as-God's-punishment meme is indeed widespread in evangelical circles, and there's a big <a href="http://family.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/family.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1222&p_created=1044996378" rel="nofollow">pre-supposition of natural consequences being God's will and "moral law"</a> in matters of extra-marital sex of any kind. Anyway, that's all kind of off the point, save to note the mindset is indeed very very real in some quarters. It's not a canard, it's just not as universal to the "other side" as those that use that shorthand suggest. In a perfect world not all people on one side of an issue would be tagged with the views of the more extreme people on that side of the issue. Not there yet. Fair enough, Christine. In my case Obama lost me long ago anyway. I heard him speak in person.

Yes, as adults we can explain how that’s not punishment but the natural consequences of behavior, but then going to prison is pretty much a natural consequence of some behaviors, too, and we know that that’s punishment.

Yup yup. But most people don’t think that deeply, the natural-consequences-as-God’s-punishment meme is indeed widespread in evangelical circles, and there’s a big pre-supposition of natural consequences being God’s will and "moral law" in matters of extra-marital sex of any kind. Anyway, that’s all kind of off the point, save to note the mindset is indeed very very real in some quarters. It’s not a canard, it’s just not as universal to the "other side" as those that use that shorthand suggest.

In a perfect world not all people on one side of an issue would be tagged with the views of the more extreme people on that side of the issue. Not there yet.

]]> By: PatHMV http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37363 PatHMV Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:25:47 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37363 Oh, absolutely fair enough, Christine. I've got no problems agreeing to disagree. And, as you said earlier, it's not like you claimed that this was a HUGE issue which ought to disqualify Obama all by itself; we've all mostly just made observations. It's been a fruitful conversation, I think. Oh, absolutely fair enough, Christine. I’ve got no problems agreeing to disagree. And, as you said earlier, it’s not like you claimed that this was a HUGE issue which ought to disqualify Obama all by itself; we’ve all mostly just made observations. It’s been a fruitful conversation, I think.

]]> By: C Stanley http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37358 C Stanley Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:10:34 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37358 Pat: I agree you could parse it differently, and I completely accept that it didn't hit you the same way even though your views might be similar to mine. But that doesn't change the fact that it DID hit me the way it did, and I've tried to explain the reasons that I think it did. Fair enough? Pat: I agree you could parse it differently, and I completely accept that it didn’t hit you the same way even though your views might be similar to mine. But that doesn’t change the fact that it DID hit me the way it did, and I’ve tried to explain the reasons that I think it did. Fair enough?

]]> By: PatHMV http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37357 PatHMV Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:06:28 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37357 Christine, it's just that I am pro-life, and think that babies are blessings, and even unwanted babies are miraculous gifts from God. But Obama's comments just don't hit me the same way they do you. I could easily see myself saying something similar, and I'm certain I've seen plenty of conservative, pro-life types who think we should try to bring back the shame that used to be associated with teen pregnancy, as a way of reducing its occurrence. I know for certain that I've seen reviews and commentaries on the movie Juno (the most pro-life movie to come out of Hollywood in a long time) which suggested that they made teen pregnancy seem too easy, too care-free, just not HARD enough. In the mind of a teen, if you suddenly had to do 10 extra hours of chores each day, weren't allowed to go to the movies with your friends, couldn't go on dates any more, etc., etc., wouldn't you think you were being PUNISHED? Yes, as adults we can explain how that's not punishment but the natural consequences of behavior, but then going to prison is pretty much a natural consequence of some behaviors, too, and we know that that's punishment. Plus, notice that he DIDN'T say: "punished with either having a baby or having an abortion." No, the natural conclusion he reached was that if you got pregnant, you were going to have a baby. If we're going to parse his words that carefully, then why not parse them that way, instead? Christine, it’s just that I am pro-life, and think that babies are blessings, and even unwanted babies are miraculous gifts from God. But Obama’s comments just don’t hit me the same way they do you.

I could easily see myself saying something similar, and I’m certain I’ve seen plenty of conservative, pro-life types who think we should try to bring back the shame that used to be associated with teen pregnancy, as a way of reducing its occurrence. I know for certain that I’ve seen reviews and commentaries on the movie Juno (the most pro-life movie to come out of Hollywood in a long time) which suggested that they made teen pregnancy seem too easy, too care-free, just not HARD enough.

In the mind of a teen, if you suddenly had to do 10 extra hours of chores each day, weren’t allowed to go to the movies with your friends, couldn’t go on dates any more, etc., etc., wouldn’t you think you were being PUNISHED?

Yes, as adults we can explain how that’s not punishment but the natural consequences of behavior, but then going to prison is pretty much a natural consequence of some behaviors, too, and we know that that’s punishment.

Plus, notice that he DIDN’T say: "punished with either having a baby or having an abortion." No, the natural conclusion he reached was that if you got pregnant, you were going to have a baby. If we’re going to parse his words that carefully, then why not parse them that way, instead?

]]> By: C Stanley http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37356 C Stanley Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:59:42 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37356 <blockquote>I will say my searching has brought me a little more sympathy with your point of view. Searching for <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=having+a+baby+as+punishment+for+sex+-obama&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS238US238&start=0&sa=N" rel="nofollow">having a baby as punishment for sex [without Obama]</a> brings a lot of hits, and at least in the first 6 pages, just about every single one is a pro-choice person suggesting that it is pro-lifers who view babies as punishment for having sex, and that’s why they oppose abortion… to make sure that the woman is punished. </blockquote>Thanks, Pat- that is in fact what I'm getting at- that this is a common canard that needs to be addressed by anyone who is presenting him or herself as a uniter on this issue, and it's relevant to Obama's comments on sex ed because there too, there's a common misperception among the proponents of comprehensive sex ed that there is widespread opposition to that among prolifers and that that opposition is similarly based on a desire to exact punishment on fornicating young women.

I will say my searching has brought me a little more sympathy with your point of view. Searching for having a baby as punishment for sex [without Obama] brings a lot of hits, and at least in the first 6 pages, just about every single one is a pro-choice person suggesting that it is pro-lifers who view babies as punishment for having sex, and that’s why they oppose abortion… to make sure that the woman is punished.

Thanks, Pat- that is in fact what I’m getting at- that this is a common canard that needs to be addressed by anyone who is presenting him or herself as a uniter on this issue, and it’s relevant to Obama’s comments on sex ed because there too, there’s a common misperception among the proponents of comprehensive sex ed that there is widespread opposition to that among prolifers and that that opposition is similarly based on a desire to exact punishment on fornicating young women.

]]> By: C Stanley http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37355 C Stanley Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:55:23 +0000 http://poligazette.com/2008/03/31/punished-with-a-baby/#comment-37355 <blockquote> Are you truly complaining that he wasn’t disingenuously calculating <em>enough</em> in using his words? </blockquote>No, only claiming that the fact that he's not calculating in a way to be cognizant of how his words sound to those with opposing viewpoints proves that he is disingenuous about unity. As Pat pointed out (and I think your post also implies), you guys see that in other examples of his rhetoric. I see this as another example of it.

Are you truly complaining that he wasn’t disingenuously calculating enough in using his words?

No, only claiming that the fact that he’s not calculating in a way to be cognizant of how his words sound to those with opposing viewpoints proves that he is disingenuous about unity. As Pat pointed out (and I think your post also implies), you guys see that in other examples of his rhetoric. I see this as another example of it.

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