Comments on: Obama Suddenly Talks About NATO And Europe

By: Polimom Says » The Other Obama

Polimom Says » The Other Obama — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:32:23 +0000

[...] along those lines are cut from that same “other Obama” fabric. Yes, they’ve upset people in some quarters, but his approach here is neither surprising nor [...]

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:37:59 +0000

As we get into the general election, it’ll be less easy for the Dem candidates to be able to sell themselves just on a vague basis of being ‘not Bush’. McCain will force them to be more specific on how they’d intend to take the country in a different direction, and the more they begin talking about the details, the more the initial support for Dems (domestically and abroad) will wear thin. The problem for them is that some coalitions of voters want the next president to be different from Bush in one way, while others want a completely different direction- so they can’t please one opposition group without alienating another.

In the midterm election, the public was willing to go along with "anything but Bush" platforms from the Dem candidates; I don’t think that will work in ‘08.

Of course McCain has a related problem too; he’ll need to highlight some of his (very real) differences with Bush, but he’ll have to make sure he doesn’t alienate the 20 something percent who still support Bush.

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:14:05 +0000

And perhaps some Europeans are feeling as some Americans are starting to feel about Obama and the Democrats in general; that their rhetoric about wanting to change the cowboy diplomacy of GWB isn’t backed by a more informed view of how diplomacy works. Instead, it seems that politicians like Obama believe that the new direction in diplomacy should be to be nicer to our enemies and harsher with our friends.

Exactly Christine.

There’s certainly a bias here, but it doesn’t take all that much for Europeans to think "well, that Obama is an arrogant little cowboy too isn’t he?"

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:12:28 +0000

Claudia: well, I think that McCain has already shown that he understands it’s never wise to insult one’s allies (for instance with regards to NAFTA). Not only that, McCain and Clinton sometimes actually talk about Europe and NATO whereas Obama doesn’t mention us for a year, and then when he does he decides to generalize and insult us.

Initially, most Europeans indeed want a Democrat. In the Netherlands, 65% or so want a Democrat and 70% of them want Hillary Clinton (numbers out of my head, not figures available right now, newspapers did research). The media might be another story, but the people want Clinton.

But Europeans’ loyalty only goes so far. They initially prefer a Democrat but when this Democrat never mentions us, only to insult us when he finally does mention us, that attitude quickly changes (you and I both know this as well I bet).

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:01:11 +0000

Claudia: perhaps uninformed Europeans have a kneejerk attitude like that (GOP= bad!), but I’d like to think that there are more intelligent Europeans as well. After all, if they look at their own internal politics they know that individuals within each party can be quite different in temperament and on policy.

And perhaps some Europeans are feeling as some Americans are starting to feel about Obama and the Democrats in general; that their rhetoric about wanting to change the cowboy diplomacy of GWB isn’t backed by a more informed view of how diplomacy works. Instead, it seems that politicians like Obama believe that the new direction in diplomacy should be to be nicer to our enemies and harsher with our friends.

By: Claudia

Claudia — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 12:43:20 +0000

Michael, I’m not saying that I agree with the statement, I’m saying that you’ve shown no evidence that Clinton or McCain are immune to this attitude, sadly very prevalent in the US. I don’t appreciate the attitude either, especially considering Spain has lost some young people in Afghanistan too, and that helping the US with the country was an act of collaboration with a friendly nation, not any obligation we have. But now think of some of the things that European politicians, even conservative ones, say about the US, it’s people and it’s leaders sometimes, and ask yourself if the less-than-fortunate statements is a one way street. The difference is that when an American politician says something bad about Europeans, we get mad, while Americans are unlikely to even find out, let alone care, if a European politician says something bad about the US:

You say that Dutch conservatives would prefer McCain. That might well be, but I think it’s not too much of a stretch to say that the bulk of Europe wants a Democrat, and would be very disappointed if the US AGAIN chose a Republican considering what the last Republican was like. My feeling is that additionally they’d prefer Obama to Clinton, but I think that this feeling is quite mild, meaning they’d be ok with either one as president, just as long as it wasn’t McCain (not for himself, just because he’s a Republican).

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 11:46:01 +0000

It’s not that simple at all Claudia. You know that. Dutch conservatives have more sympathy for someone like McCain than for someone like Obama (with his talks about talking to Iran, while withdrawing from Iraq ASAP).

Aside from that, it’s also important to note that when it comes to this issue, my reaction is fairly typical; you and I both know that this kind of criticism isn’t welcomed in European countries, especially not because Obama makes such sweeping statements, disregarding the very real sacrifices some European countries have given.

You’ve waaayyy overreacted to the statement

We disagree on that. This man never talks about Europe, didn’t hold one meeting, but when he finally does so he decides to play the popular theme (stolen from others at that). He insults our sacrifices and he ignores the fact that Dutch young lads are brought back home in bodybags because they’re fighting their butts off against the Taliban in one of the most dangerous provinces of this country.

This is Rumsfeld (old and new europe) all over again. If you look at the past few years, you should know that these things aren’t taken lightly in Europe.

By: Claudia

Claudia — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 11:17:17 +0000

Michael, you should maybe mentioned to the gathered audience that you aren’t exactly typical for a European. Maybe they’d like to know that Europeans are mostly rooting for Obama, and that they ESPECIALLY want it to be a Democrat, while you likely would rather it be McCain, so your view, which you’re entitled to, is not exactly what’s going to be the standard European reaction.

You’ve waaayyy overreacted to the statement. I understand irritation, Spain is also in Afghanistan, but I think you fail to prove that any other candidate in the field is going to be better. You know as well as I do that a Republican president would be the worst thing for European to American relations, so are you endorsing that the US elects a Democrat?

By: TKelso

TKelso — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:01:38 +0000

Obama’s popularity is fascinating to this American. He is a blank man (that’s b-l-a-n-k); he’s been a law professor, a state legislator (not a position of prominence here in the States) and briefly a U.S. Senator from Illinois. He hasn’t been around long enough to do anything or be identified with anything. He’s handsome and an inspiring and lyrical speaker. Put these things together and the American voters are able to see him as whatever they want him to be. He just says "Yes we can" and "Change" and those prone to hysteria start applauding and sending in money. For the last 5 years we’ve been utterly saturated "Bush lied people died" "Bush is evil" "BusHitler" (that one’s especially ironic because most of my fellow Americans today couldn’t tell you anything about Hitler other than he was German and apparently caused some trouble in Europe a while ago) blah blah blah…. Even people who supported Bush are sick of hearing how much others hate him; so even these former supporters will be happy to see him leave office. All of the above adds up to a deep desire for change (whatever the hell that means to them) for the sake of change alone. Into this perfect storm comes our blank-man Obama. He’s young and therefore exudes energy; he’s easy on the eyes and easy on the ears (partly because he says nothing) and his skin color gently attracts throngs of guilt-laden whites the way nuts like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could never hope. Add to the above that Obama’s opponent Hillary Clinton has been unmasked as the decidedly un-nice and un-warm person some of us always suspected she was, and you’ve got a perfect storm for blank-man. God help us and you all in Europe if "Mr. Empty" wins in November. He will either be paralyzed by indecision, or he will punch our allies in the face while at the same time sucking up to the maniacs in N Korea and Iran. I can barely imagine what somebody like Vlad Putin could do to him in an arms negotiation.

By: Orson Buggeigh

Orson Buggeigh — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 01:40:55 +0000

Diplomacy is a lost art to American political leaders, it would seem. That is really dangerous, as the world has many complex issues going on that are almost certainly better addressed as part of a group, rather than alone.

Unfortunately, the recently announced decision to buy air tankers from an EU / US consortium may not be utilized as an avenue of approach to more close work with the EU and NATO, though it would seem that this might be an opportunity. The Washington state congressional delegation were spluttering in their coffee this morning. Again, this is an unfortunate case of treating an issue as strictly local, rather than global. Boeing has done well world wide, but they got complacent, and tried to fix the bid process instead of depend on a quality bid package for this project. Too bad, better luck next time folks. Capitalism works both ways, and this allows the USA to build better relations with nations and firms that are our allies. If the US is serious about competing in the global economy, it has to recognize that it does not automatically receive contracts. We may learn something from working with Airbus; they may learn something from working with the US subcontractor. We all may actually want to consider how we make NATO and the EU and the USA work well as a team, because we have greater similarities of interests than differences. The USA would be well advised to really consider that we need to be working closely with our allies as the world economy shifts. The Chinese and the Russians are becoming economically important - Russia as an energy supplier, China as a technology supplier. We and the EU need to cooperate to compete with the Russians and Chinese; we also have to look to protecting our mutual concerns for stable, democratic, and economically secure developing nations in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. We are NOT going to do all that by ourselves. I would like to hear more from the candidates about these mutual concerns, and less about is Clinton’s TV ad a rip-off of the LBJ "Daisy" ad, or are McCain supporters sexist because its her turn now. The media, unfortunately, like the sensational, rather than the substantive. It sells advertising.