Comments on: Deciding to Die

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:14:29 +0000

And Rudi: I won’t presume to speak for amba, but I inferred that she was going beyond the private and into the public sphere when she made the analogy to torture (I don’t think she was saying we should turn a blind eye to family members torturing one another.)

Anyway- the bright line that kranky kritter speaks of is a good point as well. Although it’s a frivolous comparison, it’s a bit like highway speed limits being set at 55 mph when we all know that means you can legally drive somewhere around 60 without getting a ticket. But if the posted signs said 60, then everyone would drive 65…

By: kranky kritter

kranky kritter — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:46:52 +0000

Rudi, I have no interest here in speaking to the notion of coerced suicide, only to the connection we note above between torture and euthanasia, which I believe you are misunderstanding. I thought I was pretty clear when I said the following: let me be clear, the analogy is not that euthanasia is like torture. The connection is that both work best if we quietly accept in private that there may instances where either torture or euthanasia might in fact be necessary. But that even so, we don’t insist that this acknowledgement be forced upon the entire culture and given a legal green light. Get it? They’re not the same and we don’t think they are. We’re just saying that they are both instances of something that may be culturally necessary on some occasions, but you run into all sorts of problems getting the culture to give them official approval. You start by trying to erase a well-drawn bright line and re-draw it in a slightly different place. And then it turns out that it’s nearly impossible to draw an equally bright line in any place other than the spot where it was. In all the other spots, you can only draw dim and crooked lines.Feel free to disagree with me for the time being. I only ask that instead of rejecting what I am saying, you keep it in mind and re-evaluate it over the course of time.

By: Rudi666

Rudi666 — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:56:06 +0000

KK - Amba comment dealt only with the issue at a personal family level(micro). In comments 2 and 3, CS and yourself take it to a broader level(macro) and then include torture. But consensual suicide is different from forced suicide or torture. Oregon "Death with Dignity" has no examples of "coerced suicide". A Google search of "Oregon coerced suicide" turns up nothing on the news front.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=BsK&q=oregon+%22coerced+suicide%22&btnG=Search

I wonder how many people die from liposuction…

By: kranky kritter

kranky kritter — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:36:49 +0000

No, I think the torture analogy is quite strong if you take the time to go through both issues at length and in depth over time, over a period of years. And let me be clear, the analogy is not that euthanasia is like torture. The connection is that both work best if we quietly accept in private that there may instances where either torture or euthanasia might in fact be necessary. But that even so, we don’t insist that this acknowledgement be forced upon the entire culture and given a legal green light. In other words, out of a personal acceptance of human nature and the way our culture works, we make the personal executive decision that its wiser to "ask forgiveness rather than permission."Further, I’d like to suggest that only those folks who have actually had to go through the process of watching someone they deeply love slowly slip away are capable of having a truly informed opinion. Only such a person is morally worthy of giving the sort of "help" we’re talking about here. And any such person who does give such help and doesn’t feel some need to ask for forgiveness from whatever they hold good or holy is missing a piece.

By: Rudi666

Rudi666 — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:18:27 +0000

the torture analogy is weak. Everyone mentions the subtle (and not so subtle) immoral persuasion of family members to kill a loved one, but never even show anecdotal evidence. In the NYT’s piece these people are saying, "I wanna die" and not the phony Schiavo "I wanna live". Ida makes the choice to die, in torture there is no choice by the detainee.

By: Claudia

Claudia — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:07:51 +0000

Though of course there are fears of coercion, it makes little sense to me to prohibit a practice entirely because some people might be pressured into it. There are a multitude of practices in the world that people can be pushed into by moral blackmail, and yet they are not prohibited. Take the way Christian Scientists will pressure members into not seeking treatment, or Scientologists into not looking for much needed psychiatric care, or the way unscrupulous and unloving men push their girlfriends/wives into plastic surgery they do not need.

There must certainly be safeguards in place to make sure that the decision is a real one, not a spur of the moment and not in response to pressure from the outside. This already happens in many abortion clinics. You may think the act itself is still wrong, but there are mechanisms in place to make sure that at least it only happens when the woman really wants it to.

I’ve yet to meet a person that has said "keep me alive no matter what". Everyone I know has heard of cases of the very elderly or terminally sick or severely paralysed and are usually very clear that they would rather someone help them end it than keep on existing that way. Biological life is not always the most merciful of answers.

By: Wild Bill

Wild Bill — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:18:13 +0000

Marc Long is right on the money. Fears that vulnerable people will be pressured into ending their own lives are largely unfounded. Oregon has had a form of assisted suicide for several years. Very few people in that state have taken advantage of this option. Some have, of course. A carefully written law, such as the one being proposed in my state of Washington, has plenty of checks to assure people don’t go around callously killing off sick family members. Euthanasia is a horrid specter to religious people; God frowns on self-destruction. Why, suicide is a mortal sin, don’t you know? It’s high time those of us living without the threat of "hell-fire and damnation" are allowed to pursue an alternative to ending our lives in abject pain.

By: Nihat

Nihat — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 04:36:22 +0000

I agree with Marc. Long live Dr. Kevorkian, my favorite Armenian.

By: kranky kritter

kranky kritter — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 04:12:26 +0000

Yup, me too. I have even thought of the same analogy. I had a discussion months back about torture and a few of us reached the same conclusion that it was a necessary thing that also was necessary to keep outside the margins, as it were.It pays to think ahead and be resolved if you are certain, from personal experience, that you want to go out before your last shreds of savor and dignity have been withdrawn.

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 02:49:58 +0000

I completely agree, amba. I think the coercion you spoke of is quite real but so subtle that it’s insidious; it’s simply a pervasive feeling that society doesn’t value those who are no longer productive, so that the elderly and infirmed begin feeling that they ought to step aside to make room for the young and healthy. This is conveyed through legalization of euthanasia and through discussions of healthcare costs and shortage of resources; not a word needs to be uttered to the person by his/her loved ones- it’s simply understood and unspoken.