Grand Mufty of Syria Threatens Netherlands
Just so you know, the Grand Mufty of Syria has threatened (Dutch) the Netherlands over Geert Wilders’ movie about the Koran. If the movie results in “war and bloodshed,” the Mufty said, Wilders and Dutch society as a whole will be to blame. After all, he argued, it’s illegal to deny the holocaust because it insults Jews - it should also be illegal to insult Muslims. So this is Wilders’ point: “The Koran teaches hatred, intolerance, violence and terrorism.” The leader of the Muslims in Syria responds: “That’s not true! And just to teach you a lesson, we’ll burn down your cities and kill every Dutch person we can get our hands on!”
Well, as much bs as all that is, the Mufty has a point. Why should it be illegal to deny the holocaust? It may be a terrible thing to do, but that doesn’t justify infringement of free speech. Europe does have a problem there. There is no logical reason to outlaw one point of view and not another. Eventually, Europeans will have to reconcile this. One can only hope they see sense chose the correct way.
Before we hail Wilders’ as a champion of free speech remember he thinks the Koran should be banned* in the Netherlands.
I am left in the uncomfortable position of having to support one odious man’s inconsistent defense of free speech against another odious man’s inconsistent threatening of free speech.
* No sale, no private ownership, no use in mosques.
O, Grew: make no mistake about it. I’m no fan of Wilders. He’s almost a fascist. No, you’ll notice that in my upcoming PJM article. But… sometimes you have to defend someone you despise to save the freedom of speech.
I don’t think that the last sentence is something that the Mufty said , I think it’s made up by this or other site !
He will not say or threatens in any manner . And I would like to say about this lame excuse that has been used in Europe ( freedom of speech ) it just a total B S , you can’t insult people and call it free speech it just does not work that way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robert, I find that very insulting.
lol, i find this pretty funny, and totally agree with Robert..
freedom of speech, of course. should always be there, but doing something like mocking the Quran, comon
you know how many muslims exist, wilders is signing his death papers
and if he has the right (freedom of speech) to tease muslims, let us all tease jews, how about christians… meh, what wilders is doin is a joke (not funny one either)
Signing his death papers because he insulted someone? Hasn’t civilization moved beyond this point? Well, most of us have. Human beings can only evolve as fast as our slowest learners.
Oh, we can get ahead of them, but the slower learners have a way of bring us back. This isn’t ment to be insulting, though I’m sure that some will feel that it is. I consider it one of natures truth.
Ali, you too have insulted me.
Actually yes Robert, it DOES work that way. If it didn’t Free Speech wouldn’t exist, because ANY statement can be insulting to someone. I find Islamic authorities statements on the position of women to be HIGHLY insulting, should they then be banned from saying them?
I wonder if these people have to sign there sense of irony in along with their common sense when they become radicalized. You are insulted that someone would claim Islam is intolerant and violent so then the best course of action….. call for the banning of that voice and then react violently, of course!
Well, Michael, I feel that I must warn you. Know that it is not I who brought events to this point. I deplore it, yes, deplore it. But there is little I can do. My constituents have limits. They can only take so many insults to their core beliefs. Blog violence will be the inevitable result of such insults, much as I deplore it. YES! I will do my utmost to reign in the anger! But there is little I can do, for the slander continues. Never will I threaten you, Michael. But my prophesy must be heard.
I came to this blog with open arms. You yourself welcomed me, Michael. I want only to embrace my fellow commenters, but lo! They have rejected me. You said this was a centrist blog. You claimed all could comment in peace. Yet there are commenters to left of me and commenters to the right. Why do the commenters not accept my beliefs? Am I not centrist? Am I not at the center of the bloggy universe?
THESE INSULTS MUST STOP! You must control your bloggers and your commenters or the results will be inevitable. There is naught I can do. I weep for the bloggers. I weep for the commenters. Can’t you see there is a better way? Control your cyber-people, Michael. It is up to you. Let none disagree with me, for this I find insulting. It is a CRIME. Oh, I fear the results of such outrageous behavior. The violence will sweep us from page top to page bottom! It will scroll down to next page. Alas, the site will go up in flames! It must be stopped.
It must be stopped. Insult begets insult. Opinions flare from post to post. Don’t you see? It is imperative that it ends. Now. Today. Let there be no more insults. Disagree with me not.
Tap…ROTLF, classic.
It appears this Wilder person wants to do to the Dutch Muslims what the German fellow did to the Jews… And some supposedly reasonable / rational comments here are playing it as a freedom of speech issue. That would be funny if it wasn’t so obscene.
My, my we have some ultra racists tendencies starting to break through to the light of day.
Ahhh, now there’s my kinda guy. I luuuuv being called racist. It’s one of my favorite ploys for shutting people up.
You guys are heating up the ovens, right Michael?
That’s really a pretty sick comment, MontyP
If the shoe fits…
‘the freedom of speech protects idiotic opinions as well’
"RACIST!"
what?
Not to mention the release of a movie, however nasty it may be (and that we don’t know) is somehow the equivalent of what the Germans did to the Jews.
Yup it is. Obviously the Jews died because of a movie.
"… is somehow the equivalent of what the Germans did to the Jews."
If that’s a question let me just say that your preview of Geert Wilder makes him sound a lot like Martin Luther.
And Martin Luther has been credited as having influenced the Nazi atrocities toward the Jews.
Walter Buch, the head of the Nazi Party court, admitted Luther’s influence on Nazi Germany:
Here’s a link to the information above:
Martin Luther’s dirty little book:
On the Jews and their lies
A precursor to Nazism
So MontyP, I’m guessing you’re no fan of the phrase:
I’m guessing you also think the following principle cannot be maintained, lest it lead to the the expression of nasty opinions:
You seem to want to link us to racism and Nazism, two utterly typical ploys in online discussions. Oddly enough, the stance you hold on freedom of speech (that is, it should be free, except when I really hate what the other person is saying) is much closer to the hateful Nazis than the position expressed here, that speech, no matter how abhorrent, should be allowed (save shouting fire and personal death threats and the like).
It seems that many here are of the opinion that Martin Luthers’ Freedom of Speech was more important than the damage his words created.
Yes, his freedom of speech is more important. His words doubtlessly hurt many feelings, rightfully. And yet I support his right to have expressed himself.
Oh! You aren’t just talking about hurt feelings? Are you saying, as monty seemed to imply, that Martin Luther made the Germans do it?
Absolutely, because giving anyone or any government the right to decide which words are permitted and which are not is far more dangerous. As Tap points out, the words themselves didn’t cause the holocaust; people need to fight the expression of dangerous ideas by speaking out against them, not surpressing them.
There are, actually, limits and incitement to violence is one of them..but to claim Martin Luther’s words caused this violence, what 500? years later, is more than a little silly. It’s not an argument I can take seriously.
There are actually a very few limits and incitement to violence is one of them..but to claim Martin Luther’s words caused this violence, what 500? years later, is more than a little silly. It’s not an argument I can take seriously.
This site has done an excellent job in the past of pointing out the evil of anti-Semites but now it seems, when there’s an attack on Muslims and Islam your core values have changed and you’re worried an anti-Islamists freedom of speech.
Do "Right and Wrong"/ "Fairness and Decency" change when the word "Jew" is replaced with "Muslim"?
I for one would never defend an anti-Semite and I’m surprised that some of you see this incident as "different".
Saying that bigots have a right to free speech does not mean that anyone is "defending" them. When anti-semites speak, they have a free speech right to do so. I am not aware of anyone on "this site" calling for the government to censor them or for mobs to attack or kill them.
In the same way, when anti-Muslim bigots speak, they have a free speech right to do so. Nothing stops you, me, or anyone from criticizing them or calling them out for what they do. But I, for one, will not call for the government to censor them or for mobs to attack them.
Claudia, I think it is better for you to get some knowledge and get to know what Islam says about women ! you sound like Another Idiot with no clue , you just hear what everyone says and resay . Get real ! I have to tell you that you are one heater idiot .
..great blog and very nice people…God Bless all of you…
…Mosues all over the world are aksing people to be peaceful and quiet….
…the best way to deal with Geert is not to give him what he really wants is—- attention
He is like a four year old throwing a hissy fit…the best way to deal with that is to ignore the hissy fit…
Muslims support Geert WIlders in eliminating Islamic influences from Europe http://moinansari.wordpress.com/moins-articles/a-moderate-muslims-does-not-mean-a-non-muslim-a-moderate-muslim-does-not-mean-someone-who-is-christian-in-thoughts-on-beliefs-a-moderate-muslim-is-someone-who-respect-chrsitianity-and-christians-and/rebuttal-to-sioe/
Listing of the worst Islamphobes.http://moinansari.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/the-top-ten-list-of-the-worst-islamphobes-in-the-world-2007-2008/
…all this baloney about free speech contradict his agenda of banning the Quran
..Muslims around the world are being encouraged to IGNORE this provocation. However it is being reported that certina mercenaries are being hired to start the chaos in the name of Muslims. These mercenaries will ignite fires that will start arson acts….
Visit my blog for the "other" moderate American Muslim perspective
Once again God Bless you..and for the athiests among you Let the blessings of nature be upon you.
Moin Ansari
http://moinansari.wordpress.com
"…all this baloney about free speech contradict his agenda of banning the Quran"
It would if I agreed that the quran should be banned, but I don’t. I’d say he has the right to say he wants the quaran banned all day long. But I would also fight against any book actually being banned. So wherein lies the contradiction?
Pretty slippery…..And we used to joke about "slick Willy"….I guess next you will try to argue what the definition of "is" is……
..so to get your position NOW, it is you support Geert Wilders NOW, and will commit to the Quran issue "later"….manyana!…sure…we can see through this……..
BTW: I wasn’t talking about you…I was talking about your master….Mr. Geert Wilders….Anyway, I support the SIOE …and its effort to eliminate Islamic influences in Holland…..
Read the rest of the story….
Muslims support Geert WIlders in eliminating Islamic influences from Europe http://moinansari.wordpress.com/moins-articles/a-moderate-muslims-does-not-mean-a-non-muslim-a-moderate-muslim-does-not-mean-someone-who-is-christian-in-thoughts-on-beliefs-a-moderate-muslim-is-someone-who-respect-chrsitianity-and-christians-and/rebuttal-to-sioe/
http://moinansari.wordpress.com
No, you still seem not to understand me. I support Geert Wilder’s right to free speech NOW and I support the right to own any book you want NOW. This is not difficult to understand, unless you either have no comprehension of what the right to free speech means or you just don’t agree with the right of free speech.
Oh, and Michael. Don’t go getting any big-headed ideas about that ‘master’ comment!
My dear friend Tap:
Respectfully Sir, kindly answer just one question…..
If you support the right to free speech without any limits then why is it illegal to deny the holocaust?
There is no answer to this simple question which has been repeatedly asked on this and all other blogs.
The answer that we have heard is… err..ump…well…you know….ummmmm….yeah…its like ziz you know….freedom of spech…freedom of speech…freedom of speech…unt you don’t understand zis….uh, not good in English…. haven’t you forgotten v vere in Indonesia….Freedom?…we din’t remember it then…hmmmm!…colonialisim? wazz is zat?….. oh!… Ummmm …well…hunh!….Sukarno?…vho waz he?…freedom freedom we didn’t belive in it then…..can you repeat the question…
The real answer is rampant, blatent and pervasive Islamphobia in Dutch society since the 15th century: period.
.admit it and we can all get along and move ahead!….I hear the construction of the ovens is going well!!
Lots of articles on our freind Geert Wilders.
c u at http:/www.RupeeNews.com
God Bless you!
Just answer the question.
Or the real answer is that this limitation shouldn’t exist, but it’s understandable considering the fact that six million innocent Jews were killed only 60 years ago, mr. fake-victim.
Aside from that it’s a historical fact, whereas whether the Koran is peaceful or not isn’t.
Pff difficult huh? Why is it that certain people of a certain part of the world are all too often incapable of nuance?