Comments on: Bush: Not So Bad As Some Think

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:58:46 +0000

Lynx,
Yes, what that article is saying is intuitive, makes a lot of sense if you know anything about the cultures there. But still, you rarely see any scientific data one way or the other as to whether the education programs are having a positive effect (and a cost effective one.) It’s a lot like AGW, really, where everyone has a foregone political opinion and the one endorsed by some scientists is touted as the consensus opinion, with little evidence offered that the consensus is as strong or as accurate on the facts as the political players like to claim.

IOW, I’m not discounting at all that education won’t quickly change those attititudes, so that condoms and abstinence don’t help the women if the men don’t care about infecting them. But from what I’ve seen, the programs are pretty impressive about figuring out the particular way to educated and motivate based on the cultural norms; perhaps by impressing on men that babies will be infected, for example, if their culture places emphasis on childbearing. They’re also focusing on young people, and partnering with NGOs and church based groups which in many cases are beginning to try to attack those gender roles which harm women- because obviously the problem gets more complex if you have a culture that doesn’t think that half of it’s population is worthy of being saved from this disease. So it’s then up to the NGOs and churches to try to have an affect on those attitudes, starting with the youth, while the govt sponsored program can mesh with that by educating about the disease prevention itself.

By: Lynx

Lynx — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:36:01 +0000

I recently read an article that had some doctors halfway complaining about the AIDS program. The upshot was that it was great that so much money was poured into AIDS relief, but that many other, easily preventable and treatable diseases, run rampant without receiving aid, so that many are dying of malaria, cholera, tuberculosis etc. because their clinics have plenty of AIDS drugs but no antibiotics for the other diseases.

However valid this criticism might be, I don’t think it takes credit away from Bush for doing what he has done. I have no problem with giving credit where credit is due. The aid impulsed by Bush is a great thing, and to his complete credit. We can discuss how effective the aid is, and from what I’ve read (and am at present too lazy to find again) abstinence education is not the most effective strategy, but I think his heart is in the right place, and he deserves kudos for that.

Christine, a VERY quick search got me this. I don’t mind abstinence being taught if it WORKS, but being how things work in Africa, the best you can hope for now is trying to get the men to use condoms for their own selfish benefit, because women are worth less than nothing in many of those societies.

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:31:46 +0000

Michael: I just went to NYT site and found the article, and I still don’t see any references to data to support the arguments that the abstinence part doesn’t work. I see (in the excerpt here) an African AIDS leader getting a standing o for saying that we shouldn’t do abstinence only- well, hello? We aren’t doing abstinence only, and no one is saying we should.

I see the program director, Dybul, saying we’re on target to meet the programs goals for reduction of prevalence. The real measurements apparently won’t come until 2010, so is he lying or spinning? If so, show some evidence of that before you say the program as designed is just wasting money.

Incidentally, I saw Dybul on CSpan a while back, testifying before a Congressional committee. The questioners started off extremely hostile toward him and the program, particularly the abstinence part. After hearing his explanations and seeing the data, one Congresswoman ended up apologizing to him, she said that she had been influenced in a negative way about the ABC program by people who evidently didn’t have the facts straight.

By: Americaneocon

Americaneocon — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:24:38 +0000

I’ve pointed out this fact, especially Bush and Africa a couple of times.

Thanks for this!

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:17:10 +0000

There’s no link to the article But I read your excerpts and I see people making political statements, not scientific ones.

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:15:54 +0000

Did you actually read the article or what? If so, your question is answered. If not, go read it.

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:02:30 +0000

What facts are you referring to, and which experts? Why are infection rates decreasing (beyond just that from deaths, of course) if the prevention part is failing as badly as you claim?

I honestly don’t think the facts are what you think they are- but you’re not showing me any data so I don’t know if you are referring to something I’m not aware of.

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:46:52 +0000

In fact, all the experts say that this part of the program doesn’t work. Indeed, look at the facts. It ain’t working, stop spending other people’s hard earned money on something that’s not working.

By: C Stanley

C Stanley — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:41:37 +0000

Look at the facts about what works before you say that. As I said, the 30% on education was based on a highly successful program in Uganda. In fact the Ugandan govt advised us on it because they felt it was that important to educate people. In fact nothing else was working as well- prior to the education programs the infection rates kept rising.

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:20:54 +0000

IT doesn’t work Christine. That’s not money donated by civilians to charities, that’s money taken by the government. You’ve got no right whatsoever to waste it. And yes, the money is wasted from a pragmatic point of view because it doesn’t work. The other plans do work, hence the money isn’t wasted.

It’s really very simple. You’re wasting money that doesn’t belong to you. Stop it.