Iran’s Army
Yes Iran really does have an army. And an air force. And a navy. Allahpundit, take it away from there:
Ron Paul, quite incredibly, thinks Iran has no army, no navy and no air force at all and therefore would never attack Israel. Evidently Paul doesn’t realize the utility that ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons would offer an Iran whose president has repeatedly declared his personal desire to wipe Israel off the map. A couple of well-placed nukes could in fact do that, whether Iran has an army or not. Which, by the way, it does. Really. Iran does have an army. A navy and an air force, too, with an indigenously constructed fighter airplane leading the latter into the skies. Paul might want to bone up on that a bit. He’d do well to Google the Shahab series of missiles while he’s at it.
How anyone can pretend that Iran doesn’t have an army, etc. is beyond me. People seem to forget for some reason that, until Saddam was removed from power, Iran and Iraq were the regions two superpowers, so to speak. In the 1980s the two fought a tremendously bloody war.
Yeah. Iraq had US-subsidized tanks, and Iran had humvees. Some Army.
Paul: you clearly don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. Have you ever studied, for instance, the Iraq-Iran war? Guess not.
It was actually a tremendously dirty war. And yes, fought by real soldiers. With real material.
It’s comments like that that convince people that you can’t handle foreign policy because people like you lack knowledge and understanding of the world.
When you live in the Netherlands… that is an army
Joking aside, the Netherlands is one of the few countries I would love to live. Hopefully if it came to that our relations would not have deteriorated to the point I would be unwelcome.
On a serious note if Israel was no longer required to check with Washington how it should execute the strategic placement of it’s military and Iran attacked, what would you say the outcome of a war between two nations, one nuclear, one not, would be?
If Israel was truly in danger of being destroyed they would remove Iran from the map…. Iran is away of this.
There will be no fullscale war between the two unless it is conducted by proxy. Take from that what you will.
What you fail to mention is that the entire thing was in comparison to Israel. Forgetting for a moment that Iran shares no border with Israel and would, therefore, have a difficult time invading it, Israel’s army, navy, and air force dwarfs its Iranian counterpart. To suggest that Iran has a massive military force capable of regional domination is absurdly naive, especially when those claims are made to the tune of Iran state propaganda films. Iran has no nuclear weapons. Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons. Any "well-placed nukes" would mean the assured destruction of every living creature inside the borders of what we would then begin to call Iran crater. To suggest that Israel can’t defend itself and that Iran is somehow intent on a nuclear holocaust just because of one mistaken translation (honestly, do your damn homework on the "wipe off the map" quote) is contrary to reality. What everyone forgets to mention is what any of this has to do with the United States of America, and how an invasion of Iran or how the continued sanctions and double-talk of our foreign policy would help stabilize the region. Are you so determined to fear the rest of the world that you’re willing to start a war over these lies? Learn how to think for yourselves.
I think we all know what Paul meant when he said that. Iran has no army capable of attacking Israel. Israel has 300 nukes, Iran has 0.
Why do you concentrate on words that came up in a heated discussion when you should be concentrating on the message? We both know you disagree with the message, so why don’t you talk about that?
Why do you believe terrorist want to attack US and why many people in middle-east have grown to hate US? Is it because US is rich and free, or is it because US is occupying their countries, bombing their people, overthrowing their governments, supporting Israel, and forcing democracy through a barrel of a gun?
Just thought I’d fling a couple facts on the fire…
The Iranian army has active forces of some 345,000 personnel, although a large percentage of this total are 18-month conscripts who generally receive limited training and have marginal military effectiveness. It also has an army reserve of some 350,000 personnel, although these reserves receive negligible training and Iran lacks the equipment, supplies and leadership cadres to make effective use of such resources without months of reorganisation and training.
Despite the impressive number of personnel, Iran’s armed forces are not equipped with the latest technology and their performance in another major conflict is difficult to predict. The scale of Iran’s rearmament programme - launched after its effective defeat in the 1980-1988 war with Iraq when in the final phase of the conflict it lost 40 to 60 per cent of its armour and artillery - has often been exaggerated. Furthermore, much of the equipment that survived this war is becoming obsolete.
The IDF has 168,000 active troops. It also has an active reserve of 2.8 million trained troops, a military service is compulsory for all Israeli. Israel spends roughly 10% of its GDP on defense.
The IDF possesses top-of-the-line weapons and computer systems; most of it American-made or indigenously modified (such as the M4A1 assault rifle, F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon jets and Apache helicopter). Israel also has developed its own independent weapons industry, which has developed weapons such as the Merkava battle tank series, Kfir fighter aircraft, and various small arms such as the Galil and Tavor assault rifles and the Uzi submachine gun.
The IDF also has several large internal research and development departments, and it purchases many technologies produced by the Israeli security industries including IAI, IMI, Elbit, El-Op, Rafael, Soltam and dozens of smaller firms. Many of these developments have been battle-tested in Israel’s numerous military engagements, making the relationship mutually beneficial, the IDF getting tailor-made solutions and the industries a very high repute.
Firstly, we all don’t know that. We have to look at what he literally said. And what he said is clear. Iran doesn’t have an army. That’s a stupid thing to say. If he wanted to say what you say he should’ve added only one sentence. That he didn’t do so makes very clear that this wasn’t what he said, or wanted to say. Or at least, we have to assume that. Of course, if you’re always supporting Paul no matter what you’re not quite willing to think in such a manner, but hey, what can I do about that.
Secondly, Iran actually has quite some missiles that could do a lot of damage to Israel. Read Allahpundit’s post: he’s completely right. Iran does pose a threat to Israel, only those with little to now knowledge of the region would say otherwise.
Thirdly, Iran especially poses such a threat if it develops WMDs.
Fourthly, Iran doesn’t just fight by a regular army, but also by proxies. Hezbollah comes to mind. If you think that Hezbollah isn’t capable of bringing disorder and chaos to the region you must have been asleep for the last two years.
This dumb ass site needs to be removed from Google news.
It is just some Dutch kid throwing Ron Paul bombs for web traffic.
Maybe you should google "Jenin", or the numerous other atrocities.
And Michael,
Firstly, Russert clearly said that Paul’s Fascism comment was on CNN when it was on Fox News. People make literary mistakes all the time. Get off your high horse, saying Iran has no army, and you taking that literal shows your ignorance.
Secondly, this argument of threat is just plain paranoia. If a few missles are a threat, then every single nation in the World is a threat. Your fallacy falls apart pretty quick.
Thridly, if you think that Hezbollah is a proxy of Iran, then Israel is a proxy of America.
Please open your mind and think for yourself. Quit acting like you are the only one in the World and put yourself in other’s shoes. Wake up, read, and be free.
Are we talking about the fake atrocity here?
No it shows Paul’s ignorance when it comes to foreign affairs (of course a subject he doesn’t have a whole lot of experience in anyhow).
A few missiles. Yeah. Keep ignoring what’s going on in the Middle East.
Don’t people like you feel embarrassed when they say stuff like that?
I sincerely hope that people like you will never set the foreign policy agenda of the most powerful country in the world.
Michael,Dr. Paul clearly meant that Iran does not have a credible Army that can threaten Israel. If you want to criticize his speaking style, which results in half-sentences sometimes coming out of his mouth, leaving him open for critics to take his words out of context, fair enough. He is not a great speaker. However, Dr. Paul is far and away the most knowledgeable and sensible candidate there is.
Michael van der Galien:
You made your point, Iran does have an army. Let’s leave this issue and focus on the big picture. I copy-paste this from my earlier post. I hope you answer it so we can move on from there.
Why do you believe terrorist want to attack US and why many people in middle-east have grown to hate US? Is it because US is rich and free, or is it because US is occupying their countries, bombing their people, overthrowing their governments, supporting Israel, and forcing democracy through a barrel of a gun?
"How anyone can pretend that Iran doesn’t have an army, etc. is beyond me."
Hey give the guy a break, answers to spectacularly baffling questions usually aren’t worth that much scrutiny. Russert did after all ask him about Iran INVADING Israel.
If I was asked that question the existence of Iran’s army would be entirely irrelevant. Iraq’s, Saudi Arabia’s, Turkey’s, Syria’s, Lebanon’s and Jordan’s would be.
Who gives a toss whether Spain has an army if we are contemplating the possibility of them invading Russia ? You know they don’t have a teleportation device.
They say ask a stupid question, get a silly answer. Frankly there should be some sort of stupity threshold where you just get slapped in response.
I think it’s amusing that every time Paul says something ignorant and asinine that a crack team of translators comes out of the woodwork to interpret for the rest of the world what he so obviously really meant to say, which is often completely at odds with what he literally said.
DoDoGuRu: I agree completely.
Even as a Ron Paul supporter, I find these statements nothing short of ridiculous. Iran not only has a competent seasoned military and high tech arsenal, they also have a fervent conviction that they are an island in a sea of hostility.
Michael. This is a poor attempt to persuade, and you should really take this opportunity to look at the lapse of mental discipline that birthed this offering.
Iran has an army, but of course Dr. Paul’s point was not to literally suggested otherwise. His point was that Iran was in no position to wage an offensive war against Israel, and your veracity-challenged eminations fail to even challenge his assertions.
Reading your assertions is a great way to polish up on old college logic and debate skills - you regularly run the whole fallacious playbook. In case you’re wondering which classical fallacy you’ve employed here, my young student friend, it’s called the straw man. That would be when you misrepresent your opponent or subject’s position so that you might more easily refute your own characterization of the opponents position rather than his actual position.
You must have the ability to read the context of a discussion rather than seizing on a phrase taken out of context - unless intellectual honesty is something you’re purposefully eschewing. The assertion that Iran had no army is clearly hyperbole, and is qualified by noting that Israel has 300 nuclear weapons. In light of that little fact nugget, whatever it is that Iran has (revolutionary guard or whatever else that you’d characterize as an army) isn’t a match for the Israelis.
Michael….. you seem like you are reasonably bright, though you’ve got some intellectual growth that must happen before people should find your opinions worth serious consideration. It might help to look at your own positions critically and make certain you haven’t employed any of the bottom-shelf, easy to spot fallacies for starters. It might you feel like you scored a point, and might get some of your dim readers to say "way to go", but it will only hurt you among thinking people and stymie your grasp fro credibility. If you must include a logical fallacy, don’t quotes sources like ‘Allahpundit’ when you are employing the ’appeal to authority’ tactic. Using the device in itself weakens your argument, but the authority you cite doesn’t do you any favors.
rudy at # 8.
Not everybody on this blog is singing the same tune.
Not everybody here also sees Iran as a threat to USA or Israel, or at least we can see that this threat is greatly exaggerated.
But the personal insults should not be used on this blog.
Michael is an ardent supporter of a freedom for all of us have our own opinions and discuss it on his own blog. If you do not know, that is actually classical liberal position.
The lies and exaggerations of the fear mongering sites like Allhpundit are well known to many.
I also know that Michael sees Iran as a great military threat ( which Iran is not ), but none of us ( me included) ever resorts to the insults to the owner of this blog, ever…
Just one ridiculous fallacy from Russert interview:->
He said about Iran invading Israel ( to which Paul said about invading Mars ).
To do that Iranian troops have to march through a few Arab countries first, or they have to have unprecedented navy.
It is just like talking about Italy invading Russia ( do they have to go through some of the European countries first , at least, unhindered.) There are may be a few suiciders or kamikazes around, but never ever the suicide wishes should be attributed to the sovereign nations as a whole ,even with half-assed rational policies…
Iran can be a regional superpower, even if it is not one of the regional hyperpowers (i.e. Israel and Turkey). Compared to most of the other nations in the area, it’s military is both large and powerful. But regardless, the actual relevant question is more like: would an Iran with nuclear weapons of its own decide that it could make a successful preemptive strike that would take out Israel?
From the grasp on reality previously shown by Iran’s current President, it does not seem beyond the bounds of probability. I think that events would prove them to be wrong. But any country’s actions are based on what they believe, rather than on what is actually true.
Puhlease! You seriously call that hack-airplane part of an air force?!? And their missiles you are referring to; if they try to hit Israel with those missiles, they may well start a war with Jordan, because they will never make it to Israel.
Who cares about Iran or Israel. Sure some do but many more (and that number is growing) do not. The Middle East nor any of its nations should have any control at all of our foreign policy. Yet we know without question that Israel does and maybe other countries there do also. We have nothing in common with that part of the world and millions of fed-up Americans are finally liberating there formerly brainwashed heads and realizing what I do now - our foreign policy is controlled by media, Hollywood, and religious special interests that have not served our nation. Get Middle Eastern news off the front pages and let’s stick to America and its close nearby neighbors. The Middle East through its violent born religions (Christianity / Islam / Judaism) has caused enough of the worlds problems. Its a new day for many and many more coming.
I understand what you are trying to say , but Elrey, if everyone thought like you, the world would have been occupied by Hitler long time ago. or even maybe by others way before that. Seems like you rather dip your head under the ground and wait until the sting bites ya! Trust me, any change …sooner or later,will effect all of us. by the way, Some of you guys try to show off by going into army specs and details and head counting ,…. let me tell you all something, Vietnam was a small country & under-estimated . What happened? Iraq was believed to be a piece of cake and it was at the beginning, what happened? NEVER under-estimate the opponent. Study them as much as you can . about paul’s comment: Dum, Stupid and childish The invasion some of ya where talking about ! idiotic ! its not the 10th century anymore. you cant just invade somewhere and stay there for ever. the only result is imbaresment. last word: Every thing has a cause, but it may not be easy to find the real cause. I believe greed is a cause of most of the stuff happening arround the world. Dig out the causes from 50 years ago, you will find out why is the world such a messy place…..did you guys know a part of the Isrealies are actually Iranian? I personnaly dont see a reason for hate between the two nations. This is just a way for the Iranian cleric Regime to justify there existance by keeping the force onto there poeple.