Facebook Stifles Debate
Filed under: Feature, History, World War I — Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief on December 8, 2007 @ 2:23 pm CET
It never ceases to amaze me just how dedicated the Armenian lobby is to stifle all debate about the so-called genocide and to ensure that no one ever hears the Turkish side of the story. I have written many articles at the old blog about this so-called genocide, questioning the Armenian claims and pointing out that the Armenian militias themselves killed many tens of thousands of innocent Muslim Turks, all based on an ideology of hatred and Christian supremacy. These aren’t my opinions, they’re well established facts as documented by Bernard Lewis, Andrew Mango, Herbert J. Shaw, Heath Lowry, Norman Stone, Justin McCarthy, and many many more.
The latest move by the lobby - not all Armenians living abroad, but a very passionate and terrorizing few - has been to pressure Facebook into deleting (pro-)Turkish groups. Facebook - more dedicated to please Armenians than to the freedom of speech and historical truth - has decided to give in. Earlier this week the website shut down the Turkish group on Atatürk twice. This group’s name is: “Greatest Leader of ALL Time: Atatürk.”
Before that Facebook shut down the group “Armenian Genocide is a Huge Lie.”
Now, agree or disagree with the Turkish position, stifling debate by forcing a website to close down groups isn’t very American, nor very Democratic. Unlike what the Armenian lobby would like you to believe there are two sides to this story and many experts believe that what happened wasn’t genocide. If we want to find out what happened, we need more debate not less.
The Atatürk group has some 140,000 members. As I understand it, it’s up again, but it seems to be in the constant threat of being shut down. The Armenian Genocide group has 16,000 members. Well, had.
As one of the active members of this group wrote to me in an e-mail, Facebook has shut the group down because it had received complaints that the group was “hateful, threatening or obscene.” The irony is, of course, that the only hateful, threatening and obscene comments were ones left by Armenians. The Turks themselves don’t engage in bigotry. They cite, like I have done, academical sources to back up their claims, whereas the Armenian nationalists rely on hatred, bigotry and disinformation.
If Facebook wants to have any credibility left, it should stop giving in to pressure from Armenian pressure groups.
Here is a link if you want to complain to Facebook for acting unAmerican and undemocratic. For some of my articles on the so-called genocide go here.
1 Kornes
December 8, 2007 @ 10:57 pm CETThe are no doubt getting help from within Facebook. As the administrators of facebook have been reluctant on closing groups that are actually offensive.
There seems to be a priority on these Turkish groups as so it seems.
Let’s not forget this sort of thing has happened before. When an employee of Yahoo.com changed the city of Istanbul to Konstantinopolis on a weather report. Now someone with the same dogmatic character is trying silence Turkish groups across facebook..
Regards,
A.
2 Sammy
December 9, 2007 @ 1:19 am CETHow is a group called "Greatest Leader of ALL Time: Ataturk" offensive? Am I missing something.
It seems Facebook operates with a double standard. They shut down the Turkish groups discussing genocide claims because THAT is offensive (as is talking about Ataturk apparently), but the Facebook group called "Criminal Turkey"– that one is A-OK.
Does racism get any more explicit than that?
3 Michael van der Galien
December 9, 2007 @ 9:43 am CETSammie: the one called Turkey is a liar isn’t a problem either, seemingly. I saw, indeed, more than one offensive group. But they weren’t Turkish groups, they were Armenian hate groups.
As usual.
4 Seda
December 9, 2007 @ 9:47 am CET————————————–
ScreenShots of the below conversation & Other “Unhateful!” groups are at:
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/
————————————–
Image : Armenian is pissing on a Turkish Flag
Comments belove the image:
Simon Melkonian (Detroit, MI) wrote
at 5:54am on March 28th, 2007
helllll yeh fuck them hope u animals get what u deserve one day
Gary Meguerdijian (Cyprus) wrote
at 3:45pm on April 4th, 2007
aahhahahaha yea i love it!
H. Cem Öztürk (Middle East Technical University) wrote
at 1:44am on November 24th, 2007
What on earth is this??
Anahid Sarkisian (Pilgrim High School) wrote
at 6:17pm on November 24th, 2007
armenia pissin on turks bitch
H. Cem Öztürk (Middle East Technical University) wrote
at 3:33am on November 26th, 2007
Hearing the word “bitch” from a young lady hurts me. We don’t need to piss on each other-we need to meet and to have a conversation. Turkey & Armenia don’t need to be “enemies”~this damages both sides.
If I saw a poster showing “turkey is pissin on armenia”, I would get rid of it. You can go on attacking but I know there are real humen also in Armenia who can get rid of these things.
Anahid Sarkisian (Pilgrim High School) wrote
at 5:12am on November 27th, 2007
BITCH!
H. Cem Öztürk (Middle East Technical University) wrote
at 6:38pm on November 27th, 2007
Say whatever you want!=) I won’t answer you in the way you did. Go on if you have fun.
Anahid Sarkisian (Pilgrim High School) wrote
at 5:47am on November 29th, 2007
shut upppp!
============================================
“That Would be A Real Unhateful! Conversation” Allowed in the FaceBook Community”
FaceBook Decision:
These Anti Turkish Propaganda Groups in The Facebook Community
- - - - NOT OFFENSIVE - - - -
But Ataturk or Falsified Genocide Groups Are OFFENSIVE !!!
What Do You Think?
Isn’t it time now to make them Face Their Bigotry!
Isn’t it time for you to tell them to Explain Themselves!
5 Michael van der Galien
December 9, 2007 @ 9:56 am CETO, yes, well, they’re talking about Turks. That’s perfectly fine of course.
And, yes, it is. I hope that many people have contacted Facebook, complained and have returned the favor to the merry Armenian lobbyists.
Note that one group calls itself the Dashnaks: mass murderers of innocent Muslims. That’s the equivalent of Germans calling themselves Nazis.
6 Paul
December 10, 2007 @ 8:19 pm CETOnce again, wondeful one-sided reporting rules the day here. While to my knowledge Michael has never even stepped foot within the confines of the former "Armenian Genocide is a Huge Lie" (which, whether you think it was genocide or not I think we can all agree chalking up the idea that many innocent Armenians were killed in 1915 to a ‘huge lie’ is inaccurate if not insulting) I debated there for over a year. Yes I even made friends there so I am not demonizing the Turks at the group but to portray this incident as "The irony is, of course, that the only hateful, threatening and obscene comments were ones left by Armenians." is another FoxNews-esque treatment of the situation. I don’t agree with it being shut down but acting like the only hateful people there were the Armenian middle schoolers who’d drop by when you clearly don’t even know anything about it is ridiculous. You also neglect the fact that the pro-Armenian Genocide exists group has come under constant attack from delightful human beings whose facebook names have included wonderful notions like "ArmenianKurd F*cker" and I’ve received quite a few death threats just for being a member. I don’t take those seriously of course but your constant desire to make this out to be a conflict between Armenians (of whom almost all are evil lying people) and Turks (all of whom are virtuous) is juvenile. If you want a serious blog I suggest a more neutral position.
Just because you can pick out one hateful transaction by an Armenian that was found there does not mean there were many unfair assaults on me for being Armenian as well. If you want more information I bet I could even get one of my friends, a Turkish administrator of the late-AGHL, to cooberate my claims of being the victim of Turkish hate at that group on numerous occassions. This is not to say the group was bad and needed to be shut down itself but that hate exists throughout the internet and on both sides and for you to constantly spin this into a bad Armenians vs. good Turks portrayal is laughable and you should recognize that.
7 Michael van der Galien
December 10, 2007 @ 8:26 pm CETPlease Paul. Stop the rhetoric. I know what you’re doing, you happily continue to do it on every website that mentions the Armenian so-called genocide. And… I’m objective in so far that those who take an objective look at this can only reach one conclusion: it wasn’t a genocide and the Armenians committed some happy ethnic cleansing of their own.
Which they’re still doing in Azerbeijan (working on article about Armenia’s mistreatment of Muslims there).
And death treats?
- possible
- but I think you’re lying
"Turkish hate" - please. The real bigotry is coming from the Armenian side. I just deleted a comment at the old blog by one Suzan who referred to Turks as "barbarians."
You’ve got a somewhat different style, but it’s very… useful to read how you act.
8 P. Connolly
December 11, 2007 @ 12:56 am CETMy experience with the Turkish side of the debate has been such that I believe that if anyone were caught even hinting at a desire to threaten an Armenian they would be disowned. This is not to say that no Turk could make a threat; anyone of any ethnic group could make a threat. But the atmosphere on the Turkish side of the debate is just not an atmosphere in which such an individual could reasonably be expected to originate or thrive.
On the Armenian Side, however, there is a history of terrorism with the "civilian wing" not only failing to distance themselves appropriately and promptly from such conduct but actually, in many instances, supporting it morally or even financially. Furthermore, now that there are online forums it’s easy to see that a not insignificant percentage of the posts from the Armenian side contain hateful references to Turks. I was born and raised in this culture so I know a slur when I see it and no one is going to tell me otherwise. So even if I didn’t know personally Turks who have been threatened ( and it so happens that I do) I wouldn’t have any problem believing that reports of threats coming from the Armenian side are real. The first step to solving a problem is recognizing that the problem exists; the Armenian Community needs to take this first step and take it promptly and decisively.
Clearly, something very wrong is going on at Facebook.
9 Paul
December 11, 2007 @ 3:32 am CET"And death treats?
- possible
- but I think you’re lying"
Real mature. Go ahead and call your commentators a liar. I’ve already heard enough about my alleged misdeeds here, yet you’re the one mistreating me. You seem to trust me, then you should believe me. If you don’t that’s your business but coming out calling me a liar is ridiculous. I’ve gotten them. One said he wished he could come kill my whole family. Another said if I stepped foot in my ancestral village I’d get my "head cut".
One seems to think that someone writing a political blog would be savvy in the ways of the world, but your notion that there’s no hate on the Turkish side but that the Armenian side is just saturated with it is sickening. Sure there’s a lot of hate from some Armenians, but you constantly try to make that a hallmark of Armenian life and seem almost incapable of thinking anything bad about Turks. I’m the one who has been a member of AGHL for a year now, not you, stop telling me what has and hasn’t gone on there and who is and isn’t full of hatred- the answer of which is not everyone at huge lie and not everyone who is Armenian.
And if you want to be reminded of the fact that non-Armenians are capable of hate, just drop by the facebook group "There’s no place for Armenians in the World!" It’s just one of many gems out there to prove there are two sides to your alleged "Only Armenians are capable of hate" fallacy.
10 Michael van der Galien
December 11, 2007 @ 8:59 am CETLOL Paul. You link to an Azeri facebook thread and act as if its Turkish. Who’s the dishonest one here huh? Perhaps you should point out that the Azeris and Armenians are at war with each other because the Armenians cowardly invaded Azerbeidjan in 1992 and occupy 20% of Azerbeidjani lands since then?
And have driven 1 million Muslims off their homes, and put them into camps.
Perhaps you should mention that?
Yes, you are dishonest. Not a bit. But very, very much.
11 Paul
December 11, 2007 @ 1:44 pm CETI thought Turks and Azeris were brothers? Does that somehow make it right for Azeris to advocate the mass extinction of the Armenian people and call them all Nazis?
I thought Armenians and Turks fought a civil war according to you in 1915 which Armenians obviously lost. Does that give them the right to be equally as hateful towards Turks because they lost a war? Why is it ok for Azeris to hate Armenians but not ok for Armenians to hate Turks or Azeris? Since when is hate towards an entire people irregardless of individual personalities, views, or differences acceptable? There’s no arguing with you because you stubbornly refuse to see your own double-standards, this is ridiculous.
12 Michael van der Galien
December 11, 2007 @ 1:54 pm CETO see! Implying that it are the Turks who run the Facebook group is quite alright since Turks and Azeris are both Muslim!
Yeah, that makes sense Paul, if you’re Armenian. Well, if you’re a dishonest Armenian that is.
There’s no arguing with you because you stubbornly refuse to see your own double-standards, this is ridiculous.
I’m truly laughing my ass off. Yes, Paul, I’m very hypocritical, am I not? After all, we’re talking about Turks and Armenians and you quickly focus on Azeris without informing the reader that they are Azeris, instead you pretend they’re Turk!
And - those Azeris have every right to be angry with Armenia. They shouldn’t hate, but they’re right to be angry. Unlike what you and the Armenian government want to make it look like there was not a civil war going on in Azerbeijan. Instead, the Armenian government armed some Armenians in Azerbeijan - as the Russians did during World War I with Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire - and then invaded en masse.
As usual, because Armenia wanted to dominate other peoples and other countries. Just like your rogue state did after World War I when it attacked Azerbeijan and Georgia. Luckily, Armenia lost both wars because they were better at terrorism than war.
Meanwhile, your Armenia is still occupying Azerbeijan - 20% of the country occupied, 1 million Muslims driven from their homes. If my country was for 20% occupied by Germans who then pushed off the Dutch people and would force them to live in camps, you can bet your butt on it that I would be angry with Germans.
Note: this is still going on. Armenia is still occupying lands that aren’t hers.
As the Armenian Church, state and nationalists always want of course. First they want lands in Turkey that aren’t and have never been theirs, then they want lands in Azerbeijan that aren’t and have never been theirs, then they want lands in Georgia that aren’t and have never been theirs, then they want land again from Azerbeijan, lands that aren’t and have never been from Armenia.
"This is ridiculous." - Then don’t comment. Since you do, I’ll simply continue to expose Armenia’s policy today, the strategies and lies of the Armenian lobby, etc.
13 P. Connolly
December 11, 2007 @ 7:17 pm CETWhat we have here is another example of the misleading nature of information provided by the Armenian side. The facebook group "There’s no place for Armenians in the World" is a group of Azeris - not Turks arguing the "genocide" issue. While it’s true that Azeris are ethnically and linguistically related to the Turks, they are a distinct culture living in a separate and distinct country. That country has been involved in a prolonged, bitter War with Armenia and that’s what the facebook group is about.
It’s misleading to cite this facebook group as an example of Turkish Hatred in the "genocide" debate. This is exactly the type of total disregard for the truth that has become such a typical tactic used by the Armenian side. Then when Michael points this out he is accused of insinuating that it’s "right for Azeris to advocate the mass extinction of the Armenian people and call them all Nazis". This is clearly a completely unwarranted, unjustified, and insulting accusation! Unfortunately it is all too typical of the type of tactic being used by the Armenian side against anyone who dares to challenge their lying claims.
We absolutely condemn the hatred visible in that facebook group but again it is related to the war between the Azeris and Armenians - not to the "genocide" debate and the group is clearly labeled as an Azeri group - not Turkish.
14 Paul
December 11, 2007 @ 7:34 pm CETWell there was a hate group made by Turks as well but I reported it and now it’s gone- I think. It compared Armenians to gnomes and consisted of rants about how evil they were. Most of what we see now is the flavor of the minute which hasn’t gotten around to being deleted yet and is not representative of the complete body of hateful people on any side of any arguement that makes up the internet.
And the photo gallery at Huge Lie itself contains plenty of pictures and slogans which amount to borderline if not completely hateful, and certainly disrespectful, things along with virtriolic comments. I don’t see what I or anyone is trying to prove by any of this- I’m merely trying to point out that there are hateful people on all sides and your notion that only Armenians are hateful on facebook is ridiculous.
15 Michael van der Galien
December 11, 2007 @ 7:40 pm CETSure Paul. Go on. You’re good. Both sides, well, only the anti-Turkish side really, but both sides, yeah.
16 zekiye
December 11, 2007 @ 11:51 pm CETTendency of the Armenians to violence (whether verbal or physical violence) is not new. Note the following facts:The Armenians established outlaw terrorist organizations ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army). Because of their activities, 70 people died (39 of whom being innocent Turkish diplomats); 524 people were wounded; 105 were pledged. These organizations performed 208 bombing activities during 1975-1986 also. What did the American Armenians do when Armenian Yanıkyan, who murdered the Turkish diplomats Mehmet Baydar ile Bahadır Demir in Santa Barbara, California and surrendered the police (and inspired the formation of ASALA afterwards) ? The Armenians gathered around the district and SALUTED the murderer!!The Armenian criminal of Orly Airport massacre, Karapetyan, a member of ASALA, who was set free from prison and returned to Armenia in May 2001, was welcomed by the then Armenian prime minister A.Margaryan and the Armenian people who applauded him. A. Margaryan told that he appreciated this hero’s service for his country. Armenian Yerivan municipality provided work and house for him (for a MURDERER). Mourad Topalian who was sentenced to 36 months in prison for complicity in conspiracy to bomb the Turkish mission at the United Nations had previosly been the chief of the Armenian National Committee of America. The Armenians firebombed the house of historian Stanford J Shaw just because he declared that ‘Armenian genocide did not occur’, in 1977. Additionallly, the Armenians murdered their own Chairman of Assembly Karen Demirciyan and prime minister Vazgen Sarkisyan, in the Armenian parliament building, in 1999.
17 Lazlee
December 12, 2007 @ 12:28 am CETExcuse me, but have the Turks from Turkey or the Azeris shut down any legitimate blog group at Facebook hosted by Armenians?
That’s the relevant question, not whether people leave nasty messages. There will always be people who don’t exercise good judgment. But, has there ever been an organized effort to silence Armenians’ right to free speech by Turks on Facebook? Clearly there is some effort being exercised to silence Turks and not just on issues relating to genocide claims.
18 Hally
December 12, 2007 @ 12:38 am CETI am member of this facebook group and if Turkish people post bad language it is erased like Armenian bad language. Some bad language posts are put on Wall of Shame discussion-includes Armenians and Turks, many more Armenians than Turks.
Turks don’t try to shut up Armenians at this group. There is free speech for everyone at this group. Armenian groups do not allow free speech to debate genocide claims, they have "shut up and accept policy." It is Armenian 301.
19 Alihan Kavak
December 12, 2007 @ 1:01 am CETUnfortunately, the uneducated will always root for those who play to their emotions; which the Armenians do so very well. For the layman who will undoubtedly not look into an issue such as the so-called Armenian genocide in depth, their judgments will always be made where emotion > facts.
It truly is sad that a great group like the Ataturk one was deleted with no intensive research of its contents/members for no reason other than the amount of reports it received from the Armenians as being "offensive."
20 Lazlee
December 12, 2007 @ 1:07 am CET"The Armenian criminal of Orly Airport massacre, Karapetyan, a member of ASALA, who was set free from prison and returned to Armenia in May 2001, was welcomed by the then Armenian prime minister A.Margaryan and the Armenian people who applauded him. A. Margaryan told that he appreciated this hero’s service for his country."
I almost missed this….so, what would happen if Hrant Dink’s murderer was treated the same way? I can only imagine.
21 Lazlee
December 12, 2007 @ 1:41 am CET"Well there was a hate group made by Turks as well but I reported it and now it’s gone- I think. It compared Armenians to gnomes and consisted of rants about how evil they were. "
Gnomes, eh? Boy, Michael, these comments are full of gems. At least gnomes is creative, unlike the Armenian standard fare of calling Turks Mongolians, which in any event is inaccurate. So what is it about Mongolians Armenians don’t like anyway? Mongolians live in Mongolia and are Chinese citizens as far as I know.
The real point here is that hate only produces more hate. At some point people have to stop, and if one side tries to stifle debate about a hotly disputed topic and calls people names, they will generate responses in kind.
Remarkably, there are all kinds of names Armenians call Turks, and no one calls them on it for the childish and ridiculous tactic that it is. They call them "denialists," "anti-Armenian" and say that "they are killing Armenians again." All of this just reminds me of the school yard–"you are a denialist!" "no I’m not." "yes you are" "I know you are, but what am I?" ad nauseum. They even run after Congressional representatives who were against H.R. 106 shouting the same things.
It’s just schoolyard bullying, juvenile and ridiculous. It is not academic, does not adress the facts or the documents. Yet, it’s a tactic embraced by the Armenian diaspora as a whole. It’s bizarre.
22 Önder Cırık
December 12, 2007 @ 12:31 pm CETShut down of Ataturk and Armenian genocide is a Huge Lie group are other indicators how Armenian lies go around the world very easily. You silence one side and let the other side speak. What would you expect! If Turks speak for themselves in any area, I give ten more years fro Armenian lies. Hikmet Sami Türk, who was a former Turkish diplomat, was speaking in a TV programme and he said, "I have been to a lot of alleged Armenian genocide discussions in European countries, we were allowed to speak our thesis once and it was in Belgium. Result: The decision did not happen as Armenians wanted at the end of the meeting and many Europeans left the room with a lof of questions in their minds. But I remember that they all came there to advise Turkey to recognize so-called Armenian Genocide."
23 andre
June 6, 2008 @ 12:36 am CESTim armenian, but im going to put aside the emotional factor in my argument and look at this from a more neutral point of view.
ALL of this is just pointing the finger. no one is actually getting anything done. we have armenians claiming genocide, and then Turks claiming the atrocities caused by armenians around the same time. However, there is always going to be more speculation surrounding offensive commments made by turks or turkish-sided comments because Turkey has been so volatile during the 20th Century….siding with Germany in WWI, the Pontic Greek Genocide of the early 1920’s, in which 500,000 Greeks were massacred…and the involvement of Turkey in the Missile Crisis of the 1960’s.
thats why when the turks point the finger, they’re usually dealt with much more harshly than Armenians.
now, if i were to make a completely honest statement about all of this: Turkey & Armenia, stop acting childish, both of you, and make some kind of agreement or deal that will put all this behind us.